How LL could make bots irrelevant

Read that first sentence again, it makes no sense.
it is simple. First you read up on how a parcel listing is determined. That you optimize your parcel to what you want to be found for. Probably that is what you are selling. Honestly, ranking on page 1 for Gothic Dresses would not do me any good, as said before. But I probably could get there, yes. And (as said before) that should be an AR-able offense in my opinion.


Ultimately there is one big difference. In your example 1 consumer decides he wants to be forced towards something. That is quite different from forcing a virtual world towards something because of your beliefs.

Of course they can. One big difference between web search engines and SL's is that, with web engines, searchers actually want what's on the page, whereas with SL's All search, people don't want what's on the page at all - they want the items that the page mentions. But I don't see it as being "dangerous to business". It takes some doing to get a page ranked highly for popular items and the result would be that people would visit, find that it doesn't have the items, and go away, so what's the point? It takes hardly anything to rank highly for long-tail searchterms, but the same applies to those. There is nothing worth bothering with to be gained by ranking highly for things you don't have.

Nobody forces the guy with the locking box. He can buy smokes any time he likes. He has a choice all the time. If SL had the button you want, you're lack of desire would cause you to suffer the consequences for not continuing with it. You would always have choices - it couldn't froce you.

Right. But I did care. But SL didn't have to draw the things that made me care.. and could have forced me to make the effort.

If you don't want the responsibilities of God, don't build a world.



Sure, but buying a locked cigarette box is very little effort compared to giving up smoking. Once you have bought the box though, it _forces_ you to make the big effort. That's exactly the point - the system is in place so that you can make a little effort (buying the box - which won't be blocked by laziness) which then forces you into further effort (giving up smoking - which can't be blocked because it is forced).

Same logic behind putting a "force me to... >" menu in Tools in SL.

the only true motivation is inspiration determination and pressuring yourself to succeed..
you can hold a drug addict in a cell for 6 months and the success rate of them staying off drugs is very low when they get out..in fact cold turkey has a much higher success rate..because the person wanted to quit.same with smoking..
quitting aids fail more than anything..

you can't make someone quit if they don't want to quit

just like you can't motivate someone if they cannot focus on finding something that inspires them to motivate themselves..


if someone needs an aid to get motivated and it comes from anything but their own willingness to get up and do it..then you won't be doing much of anything and will give up when what motivation you have finally runs out..

the big secrete to business is there is no secrete..it is making it part of your life..because it's not gonna happen in an 8 hour day or 40 hour week..
it's gonna come from making your work your life..if you want to live off it that is..

the business i am setting up in sl is going to be my 3rd business i have right now..the other two are doing very well in rl and can almost stand on their own with little up keep because of staff..still each takes many hours a week to keep that way..
you get addicted and see the challenges and want to thrive and see it do well and become a part of it..you become it's parent and watch everything that goes on with it..it's ups it's downs what makes it burp or giggle..

there is nothing that is gonna be out there that will make you get off your butt and do it..

there are people that sell all kinds of things on infomercials if you think those work..but nothing is gonna replace sheer determination and hard work that comes from your own motivation..

The reason for that is simple too: even those gaming search, do sell what they promise, else they would not do so much effort to get high ranked. So a store selling 1 furniture item would never take an effort to rank page 1 for furniture, as it is not their specialty.

There are, at this moment, 10 places to be given on page 1. You can count on the fact that in most if not all cases, all 10 are relevant. No one will try to get on page 1 for something they do not sell. Because it simple does not pay.

But it doesn't force them, Yumi. All it can ever do is encourage them. It cannot force them.

You can't have what you want regarding building because you simply don't want to go through the process of learning. Nothing, including that button/option, can ever force you to go through the process.

Well, suppose you have a group of people who run 5 different businesses with 5 different themes. They all optimise for all 5 keywords. That way, 4 of the results for any given one of those keywords will be irrelevant - the other 4 businesses. Still, those are 4 slots competitors couldn't get, and those 4 can place linking ads to the 5th, relevant, business on their parcels.



Not at all, just needs to make the consequences severe enough.

Plus, of course, SL can force you - by remapping the controls.

Not so far - but, isn't it possible that HAVING CONTROL OF EVERY ASPECT OF A WORLD might allow people to do things that they couldn't do before?

You're allowing your flights of fancy to get the better of your common sense

Once you accept that there is a measure of relevancy to the needs of the searcher and that this should rank results, you have to consider that gaming works against the needs of the searcher.

Your example of furniture stores doesn't prove any points.
You don't know to what extent any of the rankings might have been gamed or not by factors unrelated to the count of furniture items in the store.
You don't know if there is a "lots of / plenty of" ranking mechanism in Search that would count the number of furniture items in a store.

Other than outright misrepresentation of the description of itmes offered, search-gaming is not going to result in listings that are not relevant to the search term. That's obvious.

What I'm saying, and what you appear to be attempting to discount, is that within a list of relevant stores, even with a "plenty of" ranking, the effect of gaming is to frustrate the "plenty of" ranking mechanism in the interests of the gamer.

What you have observed with a search for furniture might or might nor be a correct analysis of the ranking used.
What you might observe for a search for some other type of product/service might not parallel what you observe for furniture.

Why? Why shouldn't, say, 10 businesses share keyword optimization - so that only one of the businesses on the front page, for any of their keywords, is relevant - but at least the others are not competitors?

My last reply to you I guess. Probably you are a nice person, but your arguments are getting weirder and weirder, and I no longer see the use of discussion in a case like this.


So you are blaming SL, or even better LL for the fact you did not want to take the effort? Really it is getting more confusing by the minute. No one forces you to stay either, so why are you still in SL?



You forget one major thing: they can walk into a store and buy a new box of cigarettes any minute, so it is a false force. It might help them to quit, but the main ingredient is not the timelocked box: it is their will to succeed.

Because it takes some doing to rank highly for anything worthwhile. You can't just decide to do it one day and you're up at the top a few days later. So why would 10 businesses set out to rank highly for 9 things they don't have? What business person in his/her right mind would set out to create ill-will in a load of users who are potential customers for the proper things?

Because I may be made able to at some point.



I didn't forget that at all. But why would anyone buy the box if the little bit of force they provide didn't help? People can walk out of most adult education any time they like, but people still respond remarkable well to the threat of failing their studies. Phil was the one who claimed that the force wouldn't work if it wasn't overwhelming.

The assumption part was the easy part....its the general tone of all your comments regarding ALL Search.
You give the impression you can only get to no.1 spots with PICKS camping.....that might be true with the most popular SL keywords where competition is greatest e.g Hair, boots, skins,prefab, furniture.....but its not true for many 1000's of other important keywords, especially in the Niche markets where it purely comes down to good search optimization.

Traffic has very little impact on ALL search, that has been said god knows 100's of times! No one knows LL's SL Page Rank formula precisely and nor should we.
It should remain a secret. If someone knew exactly the formula...they would premanently be in the no.1 spots. People optimise regularly and probably come close to that sweet spot (maybe by accident even). Some people like Phil, Marcel and a few others know the fundamentals and how to arrive at that point earlier.
That's the only advantage they have...they know how the system works but not the precise weightings of IBLS and other ranking determinants.


JoJoGirl - The camping formula is a mystery, but roughly speaking, an AV that camps solid for 24 hours on the same piece of land...is worth 1400 -1440 traffic units. So if you see a plot land with 30K traffic....its likely they have 20 campers (20 x 1440 =28800 traffic units) with the remainder being genuine traffic.

Because the 9 businesses who _do_ have those 9 other things will, in return, sweep all competition off the front page for that keyword that the business actually has.

That's not what I said. I said that it isn't force at all.

If it could be done as easily as deciding to do it, then yes. But I've said that it can't be done as easily as that, and because of that, it just won't happen in SL.

read what you just typed..having control of every aspect might allow people to do the things they couldn't before..
where do you think that comes from??you can't buy it you can't have it handed to you..
knowledge is power and with power comes control over yourself and the obstacles in your way..
they could have 20 buttons and it's not gonna do one bit of good to someone that won't motivate themselves..
there is no lazy boy recliner with treadmill attached leading to success.

if you want to do it why not just do it??
why be the person that see's something and says ..oh i could have did that if i knew how..
or i wish i could do that..
explore your mind ..you don't need an aid for that.
find what you want and go after it..you can enter anything and just be a part of it..we are not talking about just being a part,we are talking about success..

there are all kinds of tools that make building easier and more tutorials than anyone could ask for about anything you want to do in sl...
you will not go anywhere unless you read them and open photoshop and do alpha channels yourself or open the editor tools and twist and turn and know how to make them work for you instead of against you..

my father told me..there are three kinds of people..people that watch things happen and people that things happen to..but running the whole show is the people that make things happen..
take your pick and there you are..

I accept that gaming can work against the needs of a searcher, I'm not seeing evidence of that here, but there are ways and means of gaming search that could be very much against the needs of the searcher, it would also be against the needs of the gamer to be honest.



I'm certainly not discounting that, but once you're found you need to be able to back up your relevancy with products or services, otherwise you won't be at the top for long, not because you can't, but because market forces will dictate that you change your ways.



You're right, there may be areas where search is counter productive to the searcher, and if that's the case let's see examples. Personally I'd rather we had a meta tag sort of system for search keywords and the parcel description contained plain English (or Spanish/French/German yadda yadda yadda) and wasn't considered part of search. I'd much rather read a paragraph about a parcel than see keywords, the same goes for parcel names which are often a waste of time. If I could see that I'd have a better idea about teleporting there in the first place.

I'll give you an example actually of where gaming can be counter productive, I landed on a sim earlier and it was like walking through treacle, I pulled up the map and noticed we had 81 avatars on the sim. Now I did stagger around long enough to find the bots in the sky and the area where my search results were pointing me to, but I just couldn't be bothered to endure the laggy environment, oh having greeting mats too seemed very silly in such conditions. Now the results may have been relevant, but the performance hit made me TP out of there, that's not good for business.

I much prefer the SLX search because it puts more power in the hands of the searcher, and I'm all for the searcher having more power. SLX also has a lot more categories than inworld search does and that again is beneficial to the searcher.

Well, ok, I agree that it isn't the best choice of word. But whatever it is, SL is lacking it.



Again, SL could render on the screen whatever is necessary to motivate a person. If you say "someone wasn't motivated in SL" you aren't just saying that the world of SL as it is didn't motivate them, you're claiming that nothing that could possibly have been drawn on their computer screen could have motivated them. Because, you know, SL could have drawn it, there is no restriction on the code the Lindens could include in SecondLife.exe . Certainly, this inspired me: http://www.gapingvoid.com/Moveable_Type/archives/000932.html .



At the moment. But there is no reason that couldn't be changed. (And Alpha channels are one of the things I _do_ understand about PS )

all i know is this..you have been in these forums and in sl longer than me and you know 50 ways to town and back and if you can't get to town by now you are not going to..
maybe one day there will be a bus but there isn't right now.so you are out of luck at the moment..

i mean sl you have free classes all over the world to learn this stuff..Free..it does not get any better than that..free is saving money to learn something to make money..
what better button could you need? lol

So you say how wonderfully motivating SL is, while your contribution of it is to try to demotivate me?



Work out what time those classes are at if you're in Europe.

I love SLX, but the one thing i don't like is the Marketplace search....i typed a keyword (S) and i gets loads of non- relavant items show up! I tried the different relavancy tabs too....but it still seems to list a lot of unwanted items. Maybe i'm not using their search system correctly

ok a few points and im done since beating this anymore isnt getting me anywhere. lol

one...god made the world and he also made free will - there is no force there...if SL forced me to do much of anything id have been gone a LONG time ago. i motivate myself...looking to anyone else to do it for me is just a waste of time. not happenin.

if the issue with learning to build or script or market had to do with the time classes are scheduled, then anyone who is not in the US would never have learned any of those things. the time classes are held is such a NON issue in learning.....there are people to talk to, self paced tutorials all over the grid, sandboxes to hang out in, builders competitions to attend, classes...so many ways to learn to build in SL! ive never actually taken a class...and ive managed to learn all of what i know without them.

yumi...all your time is invested in arguing why you cant do things....instead of in changing your situation...it is a self fulfilling prophecy and so you are right...sl is screwed up and their main goal is to prevent only you from succeeding...the rest of us are doing fine.