How LL could make bots irrelevant

Yes, I know all of that.
However, while Search Places still uses Traffic for ranking the problem remains.
Even if Traffic did not rank Search Places in any way, people would still bots and campers - either through ignorance or a desire to show lots of dots on the Map

-- or --

Even if Traffic is *nearly* irrelevant to Search All, as long bots are basically free and there is even a small ranking influence, why should anyone stop using traffic bots?
That small *nearly* irrelevance might be the difference between #1 and #2 or #3 in the rankings if other ranking factors don't give significantly different scores.

Camping might suffer if the cost is understood to exceed the benefit. The same does not yet apply to bots.

they don't want to control it..it defeats the purpose..they are not wanting to push you in one direction or the other..it is supposed to be all you will or no will to survive..

That is far different from not pushing me if I want to be pushed.

You misunderstood Ciaran's point, which is what I was responding to.
He reaffirmed his postion in the post below yours.

He says that the *sole* measure of relevancy is that the search term matches.
There is no such thing as *more* relevancy in his position. He says that *all* matching search terms are equally relevant. There are no scores(he says)

If someone made a discovery about search optimising, that was not previously know outside the search creators, and chose not to tell anyone, then it would be a secret. I've done that myself concerning search All, but I did share it with a few friends, asking them not to pass it on so it remains a secret. Others may also have discovered it but as long as it's kept to ourselves, it is a secret. That wasn't the same with pulleys. The physics of pulleys has existed as long as the universe has existed, but it wasn't discovered for a long time, so there it was not a secret. When it was discovered, it was made public, and was not a secret.

Yumo. The only reason you haven't learned how to build (in your eyes) us because you don't want to enough. If you did, you'd be doing it. There are no secrets in it - just time and experience. Nobody is keeping anything from you that you can't learn by simply using the forum here.

I remember the recent thread where you were saying that nobody would teach you to build. Between that thread and this, you seem to be obsessed with the idea that people are keeping things from you when they are not.

Don't get me wrong i did try the traditonal methods at first.....i did full page spread in the most popular SL newspapers, i did months of radio stream advertising,website listings,etc etc.....i found the impact was negligble. I know other creators that have made videos on their websites....at the end of the day you just don't get that many sets of eyes on your product that way. There are more effective ways inworld....unfortunately some of those involves gaming the system.

never saw one of those in business before..i've seen people hired to motivate which you could do...
a button you would choose to make you motivate yourself?
you actually feel you need an option like that?

I said no such thing, I said results should be relevant. I also said that a store that sells one furniture item shouldn't appear above one that sells plenty of furniture.

Relevancy is the important matter Sling, as I've consistently said.

Right. So ultimately, knowledge of secrets determines position in search, which is not really a goal related to relevance.



Regardless of my experience, you are neglecting the possibility of anyone needing to be forced in order to be able do something. This is not only possible, but universal. Why do you think children are not just taught at school, but forced to go there?

lol-well said.
I think Yumi is living in the middle ages!

PS make that trillion of dollars industry!

I wasn't responding to Ciaran's post, which *you* appear to have misunderstood. I was responding to what you wrote, regardless of what it was a reply to.

That because you're unable to compete in your market sector and you know it or don't want to. Why should Luc Aubret devulge his secrets, why should he not optimize his position in the Weapons sector....SL is not suppose to behave like communist Russia!

Actually it is a goal related to relevance. It doesn't matter how many discoveries a person make, s/he can't get a non-relevant page listed at all. The *only* positive discoveries that can be made are those that make a page more relevant according the engine's algo, and the engine's algo is *only* about relevancy.

I'm not neglecting that at all. I said that the only reason you haven't learned to build (in your eyes) is because you don't want to. I think that takes account of someone who doesn't do things unless they are forced to do them - they simply don't want to do them.

ETA:
I don't need to look at children to see it. I don't need to look any further than myself. I really dislike driving long distances but I do it once in a while because I've made arrangements. I want to be there, but I just don't want to "go". It's a lot like you and building. You want to be able to build but you just don't want the in-between part.

I wasn't saying that he should. I was replying to Jojogirl's claim that scripting isn't a secret. Some aspects of LSL most definately are secrets. As it happens, I don't care too much about them because I have no interest in making weapons. But if Search becomes secret-based, it is something that no business owner can avoid caring about.



Maybe not a "page", as on classic Google. But they can certainly get a "parcel" with no relevance listed - because nothing in the SL search engine analyzes what is actually on the parcel to check it for relevance.



Nope. What about the people who want to give up smoking, and buy time-delay locking cigarette boxes to force themselves to slow down and then stop? Who are you to determine that they shouldn't be allowed to have those because they don't really want them? It's easily forgotten that force is a fantastic method of resolving differences in effort. (And I don't mean violence, just to be clear.)

But your response to my post re the helpfulness of search to the searcher was:



You're (now) saying that is important that the "plenty of" factor should rank search matches - as opposed to the simpler "the important point is that the searcher gets a result for their search term".

The question then is - what on earth is helpful about search gaming if it outweighs the "plenty of" factor or artificially inflates the "plenty of" factor?
How can that sort of search-gaming make a place more relevant *for the searcher*?

<shakes heads>
You assume that every single Keyword no.1 spots are gamed, that simply is not true.! I have a couple of businesses thats supplies products to SL kids. None of those businesses ever used Picks camping, bots or even paid camping or modelling....yet all the most popular keywords relating to that sector i dominate and have the no.1 ALL search spots. Why?........because I could, because i knew how to optimise those lands? I did not use any underhanded tricks, no keyword spamming. listed products that did not exist....so it can be done successfully without aids.

The *only* things that are ranked and listed in SL's Search All are pages. Parcels are not ranked or listed. Not only is there nothing in the SL search engine to "analyzes what is actually on the parcel to check it for relevance" but there is nothing equivalent in *any* search engine.

That's another good example - smoking. I *want* to be a non-smoker, but do not want to go through the process of stopping - I don't want to "stop". The people you described also don't want to go through the process of stopping, or they wouldn't use such things. You want to be able to build, but you don't want to go through the process of learning to build, or you would do it.

This quote says it about all.

From these postings you seem rather obsessed with secrets. Secrets in building, in search, in scripting. With the attitude as displayed in above quote, you will indeed never succeed Yumi.

My approach is different, and that is probably why we differ on opinions. When I started my store, I had quite some competition, still have. Now let's take my biggest competitor as an example, good old Phil

To be honest, I did not even bother to take a look in his shop as far as I remember. I just went building. First Asian themed, later found the low prim market more interesting. After the initial stock needed to even open up, it was time to check out the competition a bit. And there, on #1, was Phil. He used bots to get higher in Places Search, and from postings I knew he had the knowledge to get ranked. After all, he had major RL experience in that field. Finally, from what people had been posting, I knew he made good stuff. Even at that moment, I did not go to his shop yet.

Imagine that: Good stuff, traffic bots, search ranking knowledge superior to mine. He would win, so why even bother.

Well, I did not care. Kept building, decided I did not need the traffic bots, focused on Search All. Even got help from Phil, my biggest competitor. Can you believe that? And got my business profitable as well. Still expanding. And eventually, I will get as big as Phil, if I do not get bored. Because Yumi, there is no big secret. It is all about the effort you want to put into it.

Oh, I did eventually end up visiting Phil. And he makes great stuff. I probably could never beat him in what he does best. But I can do what I do best, and be just as successful

Right. So you agree: no-one can get an irrelevant page listed, but anyone who knew the right secrets could very easily get an irrelevant parcel listed. I am sure you can see why that is dangerous to business. After all, it's the parcels that the Search customers really want.



Right, and so the solution to it is for the person who wants to "be a non-smoker" to ask to be forced to "stop", and once they are being forced it doesn't matter if they want to or not, because they are being forced. Ultimately though they will become a non-smoker and will have done what they wanted. So ultimately, they have been enabled to do something that they wanted - their freedom has been enhanced, not reduced.

Oh no you won't! I've added 53 new items so far this month, including 2 large ranges of new products. How many have you added?

<shakes heads>
I make no such assumption.
I don't understand how you could assume that I do.

Of course you can get #1 purely through intelligent optimisation.
However, as soon as someone in your line does equivalent optimsation AND games the ranking with traffic and/or paid picks, then that large or minor influence will rank them above you.
If a number of them did that it, you could see your position drop considerably.

Bingo! Hand that man a cigar!

Nobody forced the people to buy the locked cigarette boxes, they decided to do it themselves. Once you leave school behind nobody forces anybody to do anything. Nobody forces me to get up and go to work in the morning, nobody forces me to make regular payments for my car insurance, if anybody tried to force me to do anything I would tell them to shove it up their butt. Yumi I have seen you execute much more relevant and intelligent lines of argument then this. Do I need to come over there a force you to come up with a logical argument?????

oh it sounds like you two need some more competition and i need a market to go into

I'll try it for a couple days and see. The main problem with ALL Search that i can see...there isn't a "Show on Map" button on the listings page. if they had that feature...people could quickly see for themselves without having to teleport to it.

The simpler term is the most important thing, to return to the searcher results that meet their search criteria. Then, as I said, ideally, a furniture store with plenty of furniture will rank above a store that sells one item of furniture because the store with plenty of furniture is more likely to have what I'm looking for, hence it's more likely to be relevant, although not guaranteed to be.



Well that's the point I've been making all along, if the search gaming makes the results irrelevant, then we have a problem. As I keep saying, I'm not seeing irrelevant search results at the top, I'm not even seeing situations where a store that sells just one furniture item is outranking stores that sell plenty of them at the top of search either.