Philosophy in the New Metaverse ~ Where do you stand?

That's probably the single most important thing to remember in this debate.

However, might not even our dictator, LL, have to consider the wants of the many in order to keep people coming and staying?
Herding the pornographically-inclined into Zindra is one compromise since (given the sheer number of people who want adult content and would leave if they couldn't play) outlawing xxx material won't keep them in business.

Funny how it always comes down to money, no matter what side you're on

Off topic: this is my single biggest beef with SL. I'm mainly a tourist and it utterly burns my waffle to see everyone hang out in Zindra and the shopping malls while there is some amazingly creative stuff going on in places few people ever see.

I worry that we will lose truly creative innovation because people just have a hankering to acquire more prim skirts and body parts. How many very cool builds are lost because of the costs involved in creating something that then isn't shared with an appreciative (possibly paying) audience?

Sorry, I'll return to the topic at hand

I'm sure we will both recover from the shock!

With regard to your concerns about governance, see my response to Innula, below.

ETA: If we agree, could it be that we are doing something RIGHT????

Yes, I think you are right, although I think I would still contend that identification with these sorts of things is not as strong as with sexual identity. Possibly because sexual identity is so fundamental to our sense of selves? And I find (and Des suggests as much above, I think) that identification with these other issues is more fundamentally ideological than is immediately apparent in the case of sex.


In terms of how this would "work," I think that the only hard and fast rule has to be that there should be no hard and fast rules. A one-size-fits-all model of governance makes no sense, and wouldn't work. In many cases, as I suspect on your islands, the status quo is probably fine. Other communities might want something a bit like a landlord and tenants association, to deal with essentially "zoning issues," such as ban lines, permissible behaviours, maximum build heights, and so forth. Guidelines reached through consensus regarding conduct within a region, for example, might alleviate much of the need for the hated AR. I like the idea of self-regulating business associations as well; establishing ethical guidelines for the conduct of business (again, reached through consensus) might help limit many of the abuses related the SL economy.

On a larger scale, I think that the Zindra Alliance (and its complement, the Zindra Landowners Alliance) at one time offered, and may still have the potential to produce, an interesting model for governance. And I very much like the openness of Slapt.me; it has a nonconfrontational, nonpartisan approach that should be allowed to seep into the Zindra Alliance a bit more. I don't know much about governance in Caledon, but I suspect it might provide another workable model.

The key here is that you don't produce governance mechanisms where none are needed: I am not suggesting that we create "government" for the sake of having a government.

Your point about LL is well-taken, of course, but my sense is that LL is often reactive, rather than proactive. I think that they have only the haziest of visions of what they want to see SL look like; instead, they tend to respond, in an often heavy-handed fashion, to problems as they arise. And this is precisely why I think some form of self-governance would be valuable: anticipating these problems, and dealing with them ourselves in a civilized and consensual manner would relieve us all, to some degree, of having to clean up after LL makes a mess of their response.

For those saying "two categories aren't enough" ~ well, of course you are absolutely right.

The reason I framed the discussion in such manner, however, is that all too often the left/right categories are all that we can practically choose from.


Those who live in true multi party countries can appreciate the dilemma. Coalition governments especially realise the necessity of compromise, lest they lose their overall mandate.

Think of it this way. Which way is the metaverse headed: left, right, or down the middle?

And as such, is it becoming a better or worse place for you?

* * * * *

Regarding isolation.

Yes, some of us can retreat to the walled garden and forget the unwashed masses and their problems. This works especially well for those who can afford it.

Yet that very freedom can place huge numbers in a situation like that of a cat on a backyard fence, peering down at dogs in every yard. The proportion of public commons is very small, compared to walled gardens. This is a new thing.

* * * * *

Regarding sexual politics.

Gay/straight politics may soon become a thing of the past in the western world. There is no question in any demographer's mind that younger voters overwhelmingly approve of total equality. As such, the red meat diet and smoking habits of the older generation may have more to do with ushering in equality, than anything else.

Maybe it will rapidly become a nonissue ~ in fact, I would put even odds on gays of all stripes achieving equality under western law before even women do. An irony there perhaps. Consider the Equal Rights Amendment in the United States ~ though not specific to women, its stalled failure remains as a bleak reminder of where we are. But I digress; let's get back to our little world.

Regarding BDSM and other such matters... perhaps the real question to be decided here is the question of privacy, and whose business it is to invade it. The only time I see a line crossed is the matter of sexual ageplay, which I find intrinsically abhorrent... but that's me. Well, some major governments and I, such as Germany, with the United States possibly shaky on it.

* * * * *

And lastly, the dangerous part of the post ~ yes, you knew this was coming, admit it!

This is the part where responses might be unwise... but consider, which of us "overall" are proponents of a sharp veer to the right, or a veer to the left?


Discussion rules here make it a difficult topic to take on ~ we can't single each other out.

But we can speak of ourselves.

As for myself... I have found myself growing quite conservative... even to the point that I question things internally for hours, in the quiet of my own mind.

But when I look at the *reasons* for this trend... the reasons are valid to me. I find myself standing up for content creators, for community builders, for the things they have made and the preservation of a greater whole.

This isn't a pure trend; for instance I deeply believe in civil rights, in a right to anonymity (a deep~left ideal written into my estate covenant). I *never* would have come up with the "Zindra solution" on my own; I think that took us a step backward as a society.

But even so, all of *you* might eventually see me as standing to the right.

I can see myself as more of an Edmund Burke than a Richard Nixon in this political landscape, but even he was pigeonholed in the end.

And ultimately, my opinions don't matter much ~ I have a duty to several hundred residents of my estate, and certainly most of them have views other than mine. My first duty is to make clear that I do not represent them in any way whatsoever, unless it is a matter where 99.999% of them agree. And if they unanimously agree with a belief I don't share... I should either have to reconsider my views, or uphold their wishes in spite of my views. That's how it has to work, ethically, in a land with no separation between executive, legislative and judicial powers.

* * * * *

This liberal/conservative question could be applied to land barons, to groups, to famous bloggers... not to be overtly answered here, of course. But thought about, in the quiet of your own minds.

Which is why I have asked... where do each of you feel you stand, in aggregate, on this New Left or New Right?

Yep. And I'd like to find ways to counteract that tendency. I'm just not sure what yet . . .

To me, this is the single greatest issue facing the virtual world that is coming. I believe in the future (and it may be the very distant future), people will live substantally large parts of their lives online. And when that happens, The line between virtual and physical will become very blurred. A system that does not afford the same rights online that people have in real life will become an issue to everyone, not just a few. I'm probably naieve to think that most people (or LL) would recognise that and take steps now to move in the right direction, but I would hope they do. More likely, they will take the route most often taken in history, which is to fight with their citizens until a revolution forces them to give the rights which are so justly deserved. That day may not be now, but it will come in time.

To Desmond's overall question, I'm really unsure of where I lean. I believe strongly in the rights of the individual. However, I do believe there are some laws and conventions which are valuable in their role to prevent individuals from being exploited by other individuals, such as copyright protections, etc. These laws didn't just appear out of the blue, they were real-life solutions to real-life problems, and those same problems are here, now.

I guess I'm in the middle, somewhere. I just follow my concience, and what I believe to be right.

Well, as you seem to want to push the point . . .

I am sure, to begin with, that I speak for everyone when I say that I don't give my unqualified support to ANY side, ideology, or party. Like most people, my support is granted on an issue-by-issue basis.

That said, overall, I am fairly far to the Left. I find that a leftist analysis is generally more complete (i.e., it focusses on issues that I peronally find important) than a right wing one. I even prefer the metaphors associated with the left: the notion of "progressive" rather than "reactionary," of "outward looking" rather than solipsistic and self-preoccupied. (Yes, I know that these are heavily biased characterizations: that's sort of my point.)

But while I am left-wing, I remain aware that a) no one ideology has a monopoly on the truth, and b) a diversity of opinion and perspective is not merely inevitable: it is absolutely needed. Dialogue between different perspectives is how new ideas are generated.

ETA: You could do MUCH worse than Burke as a model . . .

Agreed. In my most pessimistic and apocalyptic moments, I can even imagine a dystopic future where rule by private corporation has replaced democracy almost by stealth, as we come to live our lives more and more "virtually," within environments controlled pretty much absolutely by companies like LL.

Which, again, is why I think we need to be considering these issues NOW.

Aww, Des, you gotta bring that up again. I'm kinda tired of talking about it, but I can't stop myself from responding either... sigh. Ageplay by definition is between adults!! End of story, really. I have ageplayed in RL with all my girlfriends, all of whom were over 18 and who enjoyed every minute of it. It's really a lot of sh!ts and g!ggles for anyone who's ever wanted to regress a little. It is no more abhorrent than tying someone up or smacking them with some whositwhatsit or sticking it god knows where as long as all parties are over 18, consensual and reasonably safe about it.

I will be good! I will be good! I WILL be good!!!

/me, with great effort, pushes the keyboard away . . .

Scylla, am I to interpret that as a wish to avoid a spanking???

You should interpret it as a titanic effort on my part not to derail a really interesting thread.

You can't derail a thread when the OP brought the subject up himself!!!

I suspect that the Serpent in the Garden used much the same logic: "Hey!! It was GOD who brought up the subject of the Tree of Knowledge! I'm just pursuing that line of thought . . . "

OK, now you derailed it

This is a top OP...

I think there's room for both.

I don't like any *unwanted or uninvited * control from others around my SL. I believe in human nature enough to think most do the right thing most of the time and don't need moral doctoring. If anything it'd bring on more of what it seeks to squash. People just don't like forced control and will dive underground, rebel or go off to another game. I have always loosely put PC in with the leftish type stuff.

So I suppose I'm to the right. As I believe also that people have every right under the sun to ban or promote what ever they like on their own land. Even the wackiest most offensive idea to my mind would get my full encouragement in this situation. This to me is Conservatism.

Basically there is enough room for everyone's SL if we live and let live. It won't be perfect nothing ever is, there'll always be wins, losses and stalemates. But over all I think it gives the most people the most chance to do their own thing.

There's enough room to wander and just drift, have your own land, be private, be charitable.. all of it.

On immersion verses real life in-world, I love immersion and having my own land has given me that on many levels. I've mentioned before we're stuck here in the city for a few years and very homesick... So I stick gum trees out, put the draw distance down so I can't see the pink bling over the way and just immerse and it helps heaps. Same with learning to build.


To Eric A, One thing I have noticed in-world and a tad on the forums too is a higher level of generosity. To give a newbie 100 lindens is so easy at 20 cents. So people do ti a lot more than in real life. Also that there is such a glut of creations, people give give give. Land is amazingly open compared to real life too, in that over all most people don't mind strangers or friends been on their parcel.

The elephant from last week is still in the room, and something is moving behind the arras as well. What are you going to be forced to do, Des, that you think we will not like? (Edit: no, I don't expect an answer to that.)

............................................

When SL started, there were a lot of both liberals and libertarians ... what the two camps share is a strong dedication to individual freedoms . There was also an exciting belief that the residents were themselves building a new world, a completely new society. And the dreamers who founded LL fed this belief.

Those dreamers are disengaged or gone from LL. And many of the original residents have drifted away, to RL or other online places, or to the long sleep. Increasingly, I meet newbies who I think simply don't "get it" ... perhaps it's because they so soon go to voice, but they don't experience SL as a separate world, so they miss the amazing opportunity to use it as a platform for personal exploration, for personal growth, for wild expansion of their world view. LL is fostering this, by aggressively reaching to tie SL to existing social networking sites. They have, imho, lost sight of SL's differentiator from Facebook; of the power of SL's original vision.

I think people's fears about LL pushing SL toward more "corporate" customers misses the mark a bit (despite the fact that the new website is wearing the natty black that has long served as a Venture Kapitalist's uniform). I think LL is pushing SL toward the real world, and that real world is inhabited by real people. Those REAL people need to keep their identities free of association with unpopular groups; they need to protect their children; they make real money inworld and need to preserve their income streams. None of this was the case in the beginning.

Another way of saying this is that LL has grown weary of managing its unruly new world and wants the real world to take it over.

Yes, real world politics will become important. Social contracts will need to be made.

This would not bother me if I saw a clear path to a place where truly new societies could still grow ... but OpenSim is just a technologist's playground, with serious problems for content creators. Blue Mars is a good platform and we can make of it what we will ... I guess it is mostly a question of will. Are there dreamers somewhere who are strong enough to use a VW platform to make a place where we can, again, experiment with truly new societies? Could you be such a dreamer? Am I?
.

Nice analysis. I think I pretty much agree with everything you've said here, although I am less pessimistic than you, perhaps.

Oh real life moralities creeping onto the net. To be honest, I've only really noticed this since the long running conservative governments got voted out in the USA and Australia around the same time just recently.

When they get back in, it'll fade again.

Wickedly insightful of you Nika, and not a subject I wish to touch upon at this time. At all.

Let's return to the question of what, perhaps, we *should* do as a society?

Should we veer left, veer right, stay the course, or try to be all things to everyone?

Is 'all things to all people' even possible, or sensible? One can't live in a Stallmanite world and our modern world of copyright at the same time, for instance.

Not if what Nika says is correct.

Honestly, Ian -- and please believe me that I don't mean this in a smug or triumphalist kind of way -- I think the view that you represent is on its way out in SL. The RL IS coming to SL, and LL will be there to smooth the way. Zindra and AC is just the first step.

Perish the thought

No problems. I don't know about SL, they may want to go corporate or may have had flack form the PC about sex... it's pretty small fry in the grand scheme of things. In the actual world I think it's a faddish social phase and PC is on it's last legs.

Anyway Scylla, even in real life you can't dictate peoples internal worlds. No matter how hard you try it's impossible. Same with SL, freedom trumps every time it's human nature.

Much of this is up to LL or whoever runs the platform. We can vote with $$ though.

*Attempt to keep the game "fair" - Doing pretty OK there.
*Stay out of people's private lives - "Meh"
*Try to make rules as minimal and as clear as possible - "Double meh"
*Free pie?

Property rights, intellectual or otherwise, are not going anywhere. What consenting adults choose to do is nobody's business (unless they have a habit of posting about it on forums ). Make decisions that are consistent with the above, communicate them concisely and stick by them. The end.