Why does LL have such a bad image?

Nah. My machine sucks, I put it together myself about 6 or 7 years ago, and although up-graded a lot, the CPU and motherboard is still the same. It rarely crashes in SL, it just grinds to a halt if I increase graphic settings to above the minimum. But I know for a fact that it's my old machine, not SL. And I know that changes to my operating system have resulted in more significant improvements than my hardware upgrades, and now that things are working well, I don't want to change it for a new machine and Vista! (Yeah, I'm due for a hardware upgrade soon, but I will not put Vista on it )

I've also played games a lot and been an avid message board participant in each one. I'm used to whining about "my class sucks, and I know it's because you hate us!" type complaints.

SL is different.

They are focussed on the "wholesale" aspects of the game, such as trying to acquire corporate customers and selling whole sims. Using a telecom analogy, they wanted to be a "common carrier" that provides the technical platform to carry a signal, but not the content provider who provides the actual information. Kind of like the old telephone company system - make it possible to contact someone, but once the connection is made, you're on your own.

But like the old telephone and postal system, they found themselves responsible for uses of their system to conduct illegal transactions. Another example is the fact that cable companies don't show x-rated movies on a "family" channel.

I think they took too long to figure out that they did hold some responsibility for the content. However, they've made huge improvements in that regard, although arguably forced into it once the legal system figured out how to apply existing rules to the new medium.

They are still focussed on the "wholesale" aspects of the game though, and pretty much ignore us "retail" folks. It's very much "buyer beware" in SL, and the ordinary protections against fraud in RL do not exist in SL (and you will find a huge proportion of players who will back LL on this issue.)

and a huge proportion who do not. Many of whom post here

I think this is not just confined to SL, but a web-wide change over the last few years.

I have been online since '92. In those earlier days, if what you wanted to see wasn't about computers, or in the curriculum of a University course, it was pretty difficult to find, since those areas were the pioneers in making web content. Since the internet expanded so rapidly, content 'control' took a long time to 'catch up', and there was actually a lot of conflict in the mid to late 90's about if it should catch up at all.

I have only seen governments waking up to the idea that a free world wide web might actually be something they want to stamp on, in the last few years...

I personally like the fact that LL took a light hand on content control but then, i am not easily shocked, and i know where the little red x is... *and* my kids didn't get their own computers until they were 18

imogen

Indeed!.

I think the best example of why LL has such a bad image happened earlier in the year. Where we had login/tp/money issues almost every day for well over a month.

All we had on the blog was we have an issue, please refrain from teleporting, money transactions or rezzing no copy items. When they got it going there was just resolved. Which was just plain BS as the next day (or if you were lucky the day after) the same thing would happen.

It was nothing to do with the client or with the client side ISP. It was issues with Linden Labs or thier service providers. It affected everyone.

The communication about this was absolutely shocking (the blog really was it!).

To me, that describes LLs problems in a nutshell. A potentially great product let down by poor execution and poor customer service...

I have to say it has improved a hell of a lot recently, but for me the jury is still out.

The point missed by those who play this card is that those who don't like it do leave.

Those who stay like the majority of it, nobody stays here when they absolutely hate it. However the idea that everyone should not be allowed an opinion if it's negative is contrary to the concepts of freedom of expression.

If Linden Lab make a move that someone doesn't like then people have the right to complain, that's different to having the right to have their way.

I want to add my comments, but they are a little different than many of the other responders. Taking swipes at Second Life is a no-brainer, and as many point out, forum systems thrive on such flame-bait and attract those ready and willing to fan such flames. However, the question posed was "Why does LL have such a bad image?" and I'll happily separate Linden Lab from Second Life.

Linden Lab has a bad image for many reasons, one of the most prominent being that they readily shift their own projected image. At first a small company exploring a subscription model for a virtual world that could be decorated by its users, there came a time where its ambitions ran afoul of the reality, or what seemed promised. The outcome? The Prim-Tax revolt and Linden Lab's excellent solution, land-based prim limits coupled with IP ownership and the creation of the first real virtual world economy. But then things changed. Again.

Now Linden Lab saw peripheral articles about their world, our imagination, along with requests for segregation from the Mainland, the contiguous world upon which their creativity and exploration tenets relied. These requests of larger in-world personalities and others who offered a glimpse of corporate interest in the technology lead to the creation of the private estates, Islands, and tighter controls or rights for their owners. As this was mostly a side note to the larger world and its slow-to-grow userbase a new choice was made, to label Second Life a platform and open it up to all with free accounts. Now Second Life no longer resembled its original mission except in the actual look of the world and its user-generated content. Instead Linden Lab decided to say this new free user, corporate-friendly hype-machine-driven version was what they intended all along.

Things changed again. Second Life was to be the Web in 3D (something that makes no sense) and to be established as a universal protocol there was support for a group of hackers reverse-engineering the client that later gave us the open source client and now open source clones created by reverse-engineering as the client was at first. Linden Lab is now interested in helping achieve interoptability between these third-party grids and making Second Life but a stop on a global metaverse populated with grids hosted by others, particularly corporate ones rising to the challenge or virtual meeting spaces and collabortaion. Another new direction for Linden Lab.

This is why Linden Lab has such a bad image. They seem to be directionless with the single product they are supposedly developing. In merely five years they have changed their "focus" at least four times. To me this is the single most important reason they have a bad image, because a company that takes people's money saying one thing and then doing another and using the emotional blackmail of users in-world relationships to keep them on board is a company that deserves to be tarnished with a bad image. It may not be bait-and-switch but it sure feels like it sometimes.

This post wouldn't be complete without listing just a few of the more Second Life-specific issues that lead to Linden Life's image: The Tao of Linden, or "The Love Machine", their sincerely believed development method that would make even toked-up hippies laugh; the closure of the forums and the rise of the blog leading to a new rise of the forums only two years later; their pride in the amateurish avatars that look like PlayStation 1-level meshes with cheap painted textures littered throughout their promotional materials; a rendering engine that was out of date at the point of launch and still has no real pixel shaders or true bump mapping; the thought of adding shadows bringing them glee in 2008 when its more like a word processor adding a print feature five years after the fact; the ridiculous amount of time it took to integrate Havok 4, and then only implementing its most basic features; the thought of Educational and Corporate collaboration being promoted in a system with no text features; the monolithic simulator design that now hampers scaling; probably the worst retention rate of any Internet-based service of all time; and of course a lot more.

The dream of Second Life is a wonderful one that Linden Lab is rightly proud of. Much of its userbase taking the tools and populating that world with visions of reality and fantasy is the realization of that mission. Those two things however were accomplished in spite of the reason Linden Lab has a bad image: they try to manufacture an image to suit vagaries and whims rather than creating a vision and following through with it.

Absolutely!!! If all opinions were the same, why even have a forum? Telling one to leave if they dont like it is simply someone saying "my way or the highway" so why have a blog, a forum? If everyone felt the same LL could simply close the forums and blog, all they did would be rainbows and roses

I'm not going to quote Clubside Granville's entire post (number 55) but it's a well thought out post. I might despute some the facts and reasoning but overall it just about covers the "bad image" issue. I happen to think most of the "bad image" crap is undeserved....SL is not a simple virtual game, nor is it a simple platform. It's also not a service as many like (want) to think it is. It's something else.....and that something else is defined differently by each of us. When things happen that upset us we tend to jump up and condemn Linden Lab......quite normal human behavior. However, many take the hateful attitude and scream the company is manned by idiots, inept morons, grade school dropouts, and even less kind names. We say things about the coding of the software and how crappy it is......and say so without even the tiniest bit of knowledge about any of that. We want all the freedom we each think we should have.......and don't even take a minute to think about how impossible that is. We are an extremely selfish bunch.......and spew hatred directed at the developers of something we all say we love. How does that make any sense at all? Google, Yahoo!, MSN, Ask Jeeves, etc all have web crawlers searching for keywords.......many of the posts here get listed in search results. Those hateful posts make it to the real world. That contributes to the "bad image" of SL. It's part of why when we tell our friends (RL friends) about Second Life we get those weird looks or snide comments. It hinders Linden Lab's ability to "pitch" their product to the business world......which hinders it's ability to improve Second Life.

Mindless ranting, venting, and trash talking is a thing that will continue to happen here and elsewhere. It's not productive. It does harm. Well thought out opinions stated in calm words with some facts (actual or percieved) to back up your opinions are good......it helps. It does not damage the subject of your "ire".

On the subject of "just leave card" (or "my way or the highway". I happen to think it's good advice. If you don't like it then don't take it. To stay around and spew that hatred is nothing more than revenge.........a temper tantrum. It does no good at all......it stirs the pot. It divides the "population". It fosters such terms as "fanboi". It accomplishes nothing but flame wars. Sure, it entertains many of us.......at the expense of the service we all profess to love.

Points up to Peggy's post and says BRAVO!

no temper tantrums here, just truth

just a note to Peggy

i`ve been using nicholaz 1.18.5 since it came out
last night i downloaded the 1.21 RC to access mono, in like 5-6 hours i`ve crashed more then the time i`ve been using 1.18.5 BE versions, point made

now that i`ve mentioned it, here`s a related screwup, they release MONO with NO normal client, so if you want to access mono, you need to use double-beta software instead of releasing them both at once

i`ll be praying nicholaz will find the time to create and release an 1.18.5 mono version, hell, i`d even donate money if he pulls it off

I don't think that's true. The forums aren't indexed by search engines.

I have to admit that shocks me! In today's world I think that seriously inhibits the development of computer skills, which have become essential. Not having computer skills is like being functionally illiterate.

I blame the stylist.

^^^^ DITTO THAT!!

I understand and can tolerate all of the technical glitches and bugs, even down time. But I have lost an enormous amount of respect for them because of the lousy customer service.

then the post I made was in no way directed at you

I was not refering to folks that report bugs, and use proper channels

mainly it was refering to folks who do nothing but come here and complain about how bad SL and LL is, YET still continue to use it, without reporting said bugs or contacting LL about issues and such...

I don't see anyone telling anyone to leave

I seen my own post and another asking why ppl stay if they don't like something
(be it SL or anything else)

for example hubby plays age of conan, and it crashes worse than SL, it has the memory leak problem and is as of yet, unfixed

he hates the memory leak, loves the game

I asked him why he continues to play if he hates it, his reply was because he loves the game, hates the leak and the ones who will not fix it (or can't fix it, or take too long) sound familiar?

however... he doesn't log into their forums and scream and yell and say how bad they are...

he just continues to play, yells at the PC when it crashes and causes him to die in the game, logs back in and resumes playing

( he used to play SL, but got so frustrated with all the problems he encountered that he just stopped playing, he said he no longer liked the game... did he come to these forums and bitch and moan? nope, he just stopped using it, downgraded to basic, and logs in once in awhile to keep the account as active, as he doesn't want to lose it, because he knows that I like him keeping it active for sentimental reasons)

thanks heh

it is amazing how different SL feels when one goes from 4fps to 25 fps and how different it looks from low settings to high with windlight LOL

it is almost like a new game for me

OMG I heard Conan was a waste, Im glad I didnt get it but I am waiting impatiently for Spore

Maybe these forums are not indexed by search engines, but many are........GIMP forums, for example. I've had GIMP related questions many times and my searches turn up forum threads from a number of GIMP user forums. That's the way I've learned much of what I know about using GIMP............forums found by searching using keywords.

But, Second Life issues are searchable and found by Google. One example is here:

http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn474/PeggyPaperdoll/Googlesearch.jpg

Is that the bug on a beach ball simulator?

if people don`t complain then the company might think nothing is wrong (in their view) or get away with it if no one complains

love the game but some of these issues just make me go "arrgg" and deserve some public attention, played other games once in awhile just to avoid screaming and using 1.18.5 sure helped (till now)

btw, rotation snapping is back in the RC... no 0.0* as it gets rounded to 0.*0 and 180 becomes 180.05 almost pulled my hair out *again* heh

It's ok, it's just not World Of Warcraft, you need more than a good game engine.

Spore isn't convincing me, although if Robin could use some influence to get Will Wright working here that could be damn interesting!

And the point is?

Many more users of SL use the viewers released by Linden Lab than any third party viewer.........in fact many more use the "official" viewers than all the third party viewers combined. If those viewers improve your experience that's great......LL opened the source code for that very reason. It's pretty easy to pick out a single niche and fine tune it (optimize) compared to fine tuning the complete package. Nichoaz has a small enthusiastic corner of the market.......Nicholaz caters to that market with what he considers the most important aspects of his viewer. If it works for you, great. Use it. If it does not work for you then don't use it......or you could go on Nicholaz's website (or forum, if he has one) and rant and rave about how shitty his viewer is. But, I bet you don't do that......do you? You simply move on to something else. Which is what people "should" do about SL/LL........but for some reason they do not. It's more "fun" to bash them........try to make their life harder or more complicated. Pretty immature, if you ask me.

now that would be a HUGE plus if someone could convience Will

the reason Im looking forward to Spore is a old proggy I used to have called Sim Earth...... Spore looks a lot like it but advanced

if i wanted to bash LL i could create a shitty long list of items/bugs/"features" to fill a page, if pointing out bugs is immature as i haven`t called them raving idiots or what ever, then welcome to the club as your bashing me...

i don`t start threads about how buggy SL is or how much it sucks, i don`t post it in other threads, just to remind you, read the thread title and creator, wich isn`t me...