How do you feel about using Rezz tools?

Michael,

Your option of talking to the SIM owner is the only good way to use temp rezzers in my opinion (well, and the firefly example as well).

If you use temp rezzing to go over the amount of prims you are paying for, you kind of steal them. That is what using things you did not pay for is called If the SIM owner tells you its allright, then you are okay, since he doesn't expect you to pay for all prims you are using. And since he is the rightful owner of them primmies, it would be cool. So I do hope for you he lets you!

Greetings Marcel

There is a way to make a rezzer that doesn't use temp prims at all.


First make a killscript to go in your demo items:

- listen to channel 1 and if you hear "die" then lldie()


Second you take your object (or composite object) and put it in your rezzing prim.

- on touch, say "die" on channel 1 and then rez the next named object in a loop

...and have a nice texture on your rezzing prim that says: click me to see the products. Get fancy and add forward/back buttons too if you want.



These are two ridiculously easy scripts to write, and you are done, for free, no temp prims ever. Of course you'll need to leave some prims available but hey, not that big a deal.

This is how I did things at my shop for ages; it worked well enough.

I'm able to speak about temp rezzers as a scripter who has both used, and created them, and as an estate manager who has dealt with renters using them.

The estate in question is racers island, which is a car racing sim. One temp rezzer is sufficient to totally change the handling characteristics of a moving physical vehicle simply by rezzing unscripted prims.

One. Time dilation will drop to around 90 as the temp prims erase, and the new prims rez. Texture load is a factor, but only for viewers within view distance range. Of course if one is in a moving vehicle, this can be a significant factor.

The biggest issue we face is the one of confronting vendors and laying out the facts for them.

For the record, yes. There is a finite 15k prim sim limit.

When we rent space to vendors, we rent non temp prim space. Period. There is no borrow from Peter to pay Paul here. You rented 100 prims, that's all you are going to get.

Yes, we have tested the effects of rezzing temp.

No, we don't care about your investment in temp rez technology, your temp rezzer would have a detrimental effect on each and every resident who visits the sim.

I have had people try to debate fact by using documentation from notecards provided by temp rez vendor creators.

These people are the hardest to convince, not only do they believe the bullshit, they have text to back them up. Thankfully, it only takes a car ride while a temp rezzer is working to show them cold hard fact.

Havoc 4 will not change this. Neither will mono. I have been to the beta grid and tested.

Yosef is correct. TANSTAAFL.

I completely understand, I really do. But SL isn't an action game or a car simulator...for 98% of the populous, we don't require precision--and the 2% that do require absolute precision, are probably not on a sim with a bunch of temp-rezzing going on within distance. And lastly...SL, even on the best of machines, wouldn't pass a beta test of quality and performance...a game would never make it out the gate if it ran like SL does...so, it's almost like, why are you making a sniper game in SL? Doesn't make sense to me...

I get 3-7 FPS no matter WHAT sim I'm on...do you think I"m going to care about losing a touch of performance so I can drive? Heck no...I can barely walk accurately in SL...let alone snipe a moving target, or take a hair-pin turn.

But that's all beside the point. I'm guessing people with super-rigs are getting enough performance to allow them to enjoy their precision driving experience...who knows.

All in all...I understand it's wrong on many accounts--especially if you are using another residents potential prim count. But when a sim is a ghost town...what does it matter? Like I said before, I think customers that come in to see my film gear, would rather take a hit in performance ogling the 3d object, rather than stare at a 2d picture of the item and get 5-10 fps more.

*shrugs*

Bottom line: ask the land owner. If they don't like it, create a click per item rezzer.

Thanks everyone.

I always care about frame rate. I sometimes care about being able to see the product.

If I'm looking for some common piece of furniture - say a chair, lamp, etc. - there are lots of sellers. If I find one that's too laggy, I'll just skip them and move on to the next one in the list. If it's a large store and borderline laggy, I might look for a bit but not take the time to see the whole store.

Nevertheless, for most furniture I have to see the real object before buying. If something is not modifiable, then it's more likely I'll need to see the real thing (because I won't be able to adjust the size). For some things, often scripted items, I can live without seeing the actual object. Beach towels are the first thing that come to mind. If the real product is the script, e.g. a radio, it's far more important that I get to see the instruction card before buying than see the actual unit. If I'm looking at a collection of items, such as landscaping plants, I might settle for just seeing a subset for real.

If something comes highly recommended or is really distinctive, then I might be willing to put up with a slow frame rate. But I might just decide to postpone the shopping until either I have more patience or the store is less busy. If I postpone it, I may or may not return to make the actual purchase.

There are some things you can do to counter the impact of a bad frame rate. Make sure the store is well-organized. Signs help a lot. Few things are as frustrating as having to wait to figure out whether the mens clothing is on the left or right. Use teleporters instead of stairs or ramps, as the latter are very hard to navigate when there's a lot of lag. Keep clear paths between parts of stores, so it's easy to browse.

I find this idea extremely interesting. Why would you care more about frame-rate than the quality of a product?

SL isn't an action game. And when you 'look' at something...for the most part you can't see a change in frame rate (not counting animations). So when you are standing static, in a static store...what in the name of Sam Elliot's mustache does frame rate matter?

Now, I'm not talking about a store so laggy you can't move...I'm just talking about a store where the FPS is lower, yet playable.

I'm a huge first person shooter fan, so frame rate is very important to me...but to me, the LOOK of second life is much more important to the frame rate. I don't need a wink of precision to enjoy SL. The only thing that bugs me, is terrible performance when I'm building...but more often than not, this is due to my P3...and not temp-rezz objects in nearby parcels.

OK, so...I just talked to the land owner--she is totally cool with me using the rezzer. She said we can try it out for a while, and see how it goes.

Whew...close one.

Just so you all know, I don't make a practice out of this. I only use the rezzer in this one parcel, no where else. First time. It works great.

Some day I'll buy my own land and not have to worry about it. To me, as of now, land is just FAR too expensive to buy outright.

This has been very conscientous of you, Michael. Great job!
.

Thank you Nika.

Now, can I show you one of the reasons why I want to use it? Notice the movie-camera jib bottom left...that is...pretty darn high prim, and is one of the main 'wow' factors when first teleporting in to the parcel.

Wowing people right away is a great way to keep them there, and upping their curiosity.




I thank everyone for their advice. I've learned a lot.

Here's why, from a perspective as a shopper, I'd still care about the frame rate.

Seeing things slow down on my computer automatically triggers frustration in me. More frustration means less enjoyment, and the more likely I am to just try a less frustrating area.

In RL, for luxury items, the "impulse buy" is a huge factor in sales. Just attracting someone to a store for the purpose of "window shopping" is a key component for sales. It just takes about ten seconds of a sudden impulse to buy an item while window shopping to ring that sales register.

I look at everything for sale in SL as luxury items. None of them are necessary for my RL survival.

The more pleasant it is for someone to be in your store, the more window shopping you'll encourage, and you will benefit from increased impulse buying.

Of course, you have to balance all factors overall. You want to try to maximize all the good things you can do for your store, and minimize the bad things. It depends on what you gain from the extra prims, what you lose from the decreased frame rate, in the context of everything else that makes up your store.

I will suggest to you, however, not to underestimate the emotional factors that go into shopping, and overestimate the logical factors that go into shopping.

I completely agree--and if you visited any of my studios you'd know I care very much for aesthetic, design, and overall experience. All of my work, down to the baked shadows, are considered in the customer's eyes.

I think a drop in frame rate very much constitutes my extra use of prims: remember, this is not an action game--precision is certainly not high on LL list...everything is pretty clunky compared to more mainstream released games in any genre.

Believe me, when you TP into one of my studios, you're not going to care about a slight drop in frame rate. All of my assets are unique and very high quality (I only say this from a business stand point, not a conceited one). People aren't worried about optimal performance when they are in my shops...I've only heard positive reviews. The day I hear, 'Your studio is too laggy'...is the day I optimize. And it's not like any of my studios are laggy and annoying...they all work fine for me...and I'm on a P3 (even after I flush my cache).

I think the customers are always pleased...and that's the most important part. And I've never heard a single complaint from neighbors or land owners.

This is a great example of a resident who, despite being shown why something is poor use of system resources, and how a customer cares, will still seek to justify his use.

His overall argument can be summed up by "the sim is empty, I'm not stealing". When in fact, he is taking resources generously provided by his landlord, and glossing this over.

No, you are not stealing, what you are doing is fooling your landlord into giving you more than you paid for. Fortunately for you, your landlord is generous. You should thank her. Linden Labs will not accept temp payment for sims, they require something more permanent.

Further, you are fooling your potential clients into thinking they can host the prims on the same size parcel you are. You are seeking to propagate a false reality. One which will simply drag the entire experience of all residents down the tube.

It would be better however if your product provided you with enough lindens to purchase the amount of land required to host your prims. Better for you, and better for your landlord, who is carrying you, and ultimately financing your operation.

So your question should not be "How do you feel about rez tools?" it should be "How do you feel about my landlord financing my business?", or possibly, "Do you think my landlord will ultimately understand that she is financing my business?" or if you move, "how will other residents feel about financing my business?".

I sincerely hope you become profitable soon and cease to be a burden to others. I don't think using temp rezzers will aide you in this. It is a disingenuous solution to a financial problem in a world where good use of system resources is admired.

Guess I've already said my piece about why I think a little judicious temp-rezzing isn't a crime, but since I can't get back in-world: Seems to me that if a landlord makes an informed business decision to accommodate a tenant, everything's cool... I mean, it *is* their sim. Consider a sim crippled by some craptastic combat system: we don't blame the RP combatants for the sim owner's decision to use the sim that way, even though each avatar knowingly adds to the mess. (I hope nobody on this thread actually scripts combat systems. If they do, I'm sure in that case they're wonderfully no-lag scripts. )

As for shopping and frame-rate, the big deal for me is places that kill themselves with textures. It's not that I expect a WoW-like FPS, but I do kinda need to see what's for sale. This is where builders would do well to create a very limited palette of textures for a commercial build, and never stray from that palette. Some businesses just have no choice: if one is selling skins, for example, each skin has to be depicted somehow, and the pictures have to be pretty high-res to even know what demo to try. Even here, though, there are smart and not-so-smart ways to show the various options.

At least until there's a massive speed-up in how textures are downloaded, getting this right can be a big differentiator for merchants.

This is from the LSL wiki (http://www.lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=TemporaryOnRez)

"Temp-on-rez prim limits
"According to Andrew Linden, as of SL 1.11, there is a limit on the number of temp-on-rez prims allowed on a parcel based on the parcel's prim limit.

"The formula is currently "temp_prim_limit = 0.5 * regular_prim_limit + 20", or 500 temp-on-rez prims, whichever is smaller. Any rezzing above this limit will cause older temp-on-rez objects to immediately be garbage collected until the limit is reached again. "

Here is a comment by Andrew Linden in a forum post about whether or not temp objects count in the 15000 prim limit: /139/77/122902/1.html

Wow. I don't think you understand how much a jerk you're being. Haven't you kept up with the thread here? I've spoken directly with the land owner, and they OK'ed it.

So what are you rudely rambling about? Oh, maybe that you're jealous I'm given an fantastic deal, and you never got that?

What's the problem again? If the land lord didn't want me to use it, they would have said so, and I would have graciously taken it down, without justification. Who am I hurting? You? My neighbors? No...

Are you going to be pissed now, if I tell you my OTHER studio uses WAY more prims than other people's in the sim? The land owner allows it...why? I don't know...because I'm a nice guy, and my work is high quality....I don't know.

This is all between me and the land lord...don't bitch me out for something I've been totally OK'ed to do. It makes zero sense...other than jealousy.

Pay attention before you slam someone.




Are you kidding me? One of the first thing people learn about in SL is prim count...don't give me this horse crap. If someone doesn't know they can't host a high prim item, that's not my fault. Give me a break...you are reaching now...reaching.

Please point out the parts of my post which you find to be offensive, then make your argument as to why you find them offensive.

You have the floor, make your case.

I did make my case. Read.

I'm sorry for being harsh, but you clearly attacked me.

edit: you are passive aggressive. Why didn't you just say, 'this guy is an idiot, a resource hog, and a thief--guys like him are scamming and ruining SL.'

That is exactly what you said, in your own way.

Ya...true. Textures are both amazing and troublesome. Even though I cleverly reuse textures in a build, there are also many cases where my items are very texture heavy...I use a lot of custom textures in my work, and I'm very into realism...but I'm always sure to use the least offensive resolution (and I always stay under 512).

Right now, I'm learning to utilize that special texture process--the one where you put multiple textures onto one textures...and use offset and repeat to utilize them. This way multiple (different) textures load simultaneously. It's tricky though...

Look, I'm all for following the rules. But who would turn down the option to use more prims from the land owner themselves?

Both the land owner and I know that my build isn't disturbing anyone, and is not detrimental to sim performance...so I've been OK'ed to use temp rezz items...

So why would someone make me feel like *I'm* the idiot?

I've done that a few times, but usually just to cheat a few L$ from the upload sink. While doing it, I got to wondering if one monstrous 1024x1024 loads to the client much faster than, say, sixteen 256x256s, if they'll all have to be pushed to each viewer anyway. (Not sure how efficiently the viewer handles packets lost or out-of-sequence in a texture download, though; that could make it much, much worse.) But yeah, it's great for making sure all the textures rez simultaneously. Of course, the trick doesn't work at all for textures that are to be tile-repeated.

It is stealing. We would all like more prims,that's why most of us buy more land. I had a tenant who had one and he didn't even know it.(some aquarium) he was constanly over his prim limit all the time. He didn't understand why until I went up to look at his things.(He was new and never even heard of a temp rezzer.)

Well if the SIM owner says you can have a temp rezzor then you can have one LOL, whether it causes lag or steals prims or not.

Unless someone figures out they crash the entire grid and cause global warming or something.

You've taken this out of context and misinterpreted what I said. I didn't say I care more about frame-rate than the quality of the product, I said I care more about it than being able to see the product before purchase.

It's very rare for the quality of something to totally exceed all the competition, and even when that happens, it's usually not for long. So why waste time trying to see whether or not an item has any quality in the first place (it may not), when I can more quickly go to another store that allows me to examine an item more quickly.

I will admit that, to an extent, I'm using frame-rate as a euphemism for lag. But there's more to it than standing static in a static store. First I have to find the bloody thing, and even though I will just move the camera around, it's rare that I can find things just with the camera. So the frame rate does matter, before I even get to looking at the item.

Says the person running a temp rezzer to gain prims for which his landlord must pay.

Thanks for proving my case again, now how about you get off your high horse and prove yours.

He is using resources that have been given to him by his landlord. He was up front about this, and didn't gloss over it.


I don't see anything in here that suggests the landlord was fooled, or is ignorant about such issues, or isn't intelligent enough to make an informed decision. So let's not jump to conclusions about the landlord's competence.


Totally false. Granted, not all users know enough to check prim counts before buying things. But such users also don't know enough to check the size of the parcel where the store is located. It would probably never occur to them. It's not even a reasonable way to approach the problem, since it should be obvious to anyone, even a beginning user, that there will be differences in all the other items on the parcel. This might be in a 200 prim store building, while the buyer may want it for an 800 prim house.

While it hasn't been mentioned yet, hopefully the seller in this case will include the prim count in signage and/or notecards.


That's a value judgment concerning an economic agreement between the seller and the landlord. There's no basis for making such judgments; for all we know, the landlord is charging above-market rates. Nor is it appropriate to be making such judgments. It's their private business, not ours.

It's really simple.

Using 'temp' objects to achieve a non-temp effect is an abuse of "temp".
Using temp rezzers to 'get more prims' is an abuse.

Maybe the practice does not have a huge impact if only a few people in a sim do it.
However, it doesn't scale.
It's a bit like the spam situation. Maybe a few unsolicited messages now and again are not the end of the world. Once a lot of people start sending unsolicited messages, it grows into a huge problem.
Is it OK to send unsolicited IMs and group invitations as long as only a few do it? At what stage does it become acceptable?

It's not OK to kill sim performance, but it's OK to half-kill it? Must things get unacceptably bad before any action is taken?


People who use temp rezzers to achive the appearance of permanence are freeloaders.