Is it right to do this as a seller??
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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10-16-2008 18:13
From: Qie Niangao Presumably not literally "exactly what I want", though. I mean, buying it shouldn't give me the right to copybot it and claim it as my own creation, should it? Of course not. If the creator sets an item as no copy, then it should never be copied by any method. But what she said is that, if you buy one of her products, you don't own it - she owns it, because you only buy the right to use it. Of course, she may have meant something a little different to what she actually wrote.
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Infiniview Merit
The 100 Trillionth Cell
Join date: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 845
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10-16-2008 19:59
From: Ricardo Harris From: Gabby Handrick But if I purchase a full perm texture or animation they generally come with a license that allows me to use the ...QUOTE]
A license? What license? Who's license? The person who is selling the items? This is what they put down, they set rules telling you what you can and what you can't do with items you're buying from them. This is all it is, mere words and nothing else.
There's no such thing as a license and the sooner these people realize it the better off they will be. No one owns anything here. Or should I say, no one has a patent on anything here which prevents a person from re-selling or changing any item around. That is if it's not a non-transfer item, anyway. Hi there Ricardo, Patents dont apply in this situation. I am interested in knowing exactly what your intent is in telling everyone here on the forums that they can do whatever they want disregarding lic. agreements. Of course they are just words but they have meaning behind them. Just like Laws are just words that have meaning behind them. There is nothing stopping me from taking stuff off my neighbors property. Do you think I should just because I can? Are you really trying to tell people that agreements mean nothing? Due to the nature of texture and animations in certain cases as in the case of anims they need to be full perm to be fully functional for the purpose of the creators needs. Does the idea of honoring the agreements offend you somehow? If everyone chose to ignore agreements then no one would create textures or animations. All cultures and societies have agreements embedded in them that help them function. In fact that is what societies are...systems of agreement. Just because you Can do something does not mean you should. But in the chance I misunderstood what your saying, please explain what you mean with more words. Because it sounds like your saying that people should just take whatever they can no matter what. Is that what your really trying to tell the new people here on the forums?
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Kidd Krasner
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Join date: 1 Jan 2007
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10-16-2008 21:24
From: Qie Niangao It's up to the courts. And AFAIK, the common-sense view is what works in court: the C/M/T permissions stand as an implicit license grant unless overridden by an explicit license, and the effect of such explicit license depends on how well it was written and the quality of the evidence that the buyer affirmed those terms prior to delivery.
The common-sense view is to wait to see what actually happens in a real court case before reaching conclusions about what works or doesn't work in court. This issue has been discussed before. Suffice it to say that it's not obvious that the C/M/T is an implicit license, particularly with regard to textures, or anything else where the permissions system isn't adequate to express the copyright owner's true intent. I'd expect a court to listen to reasonable arguments on both sides. As for evidence that the buyer affirmed the license terms, that's not strictly necessary. If you buy a CD with copyrighted material and start making copies without permission, you've violated the copyright, whether or not you've affirmed anything. Or even read it. A seller might need to prove that the license terms were sufficiently prominent that the buyer should have known about them. An explicit affirmation is simply one powerful way to prove that, but not the only way.
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Ricardo Harris
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10-16-2008 21:44
From: Gabby Handrick I'm curious, do you have the same viewpoint for real life items? Let's say you just went to the store and purchased a Bladerunner DVD. Do you believe that your ownership of the physical DVD somehow gives you rights to duplicate and resell it? What you are proposing seems to be no different. If everyone took your view there would be no creator willing to sell their items for use in other creator's products and that would not be good for sl. And by the way, what do patents have to do with this discussion? Now you're trying to compare RL to this and it just isn't the same.
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Colette Meiji
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Join date: 25 Mar 2005
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10-16-2008 21:47
From: Ricardo Harris There's no such thing as a license and the sooner these people realize it the better off they will be. No one owns anything here. Or should I say, no one has a patent on anything here which prevents a person from re-selling or changing any item around. That is if it's not a non-transfer item, anyway.
Copyright law would argue differently.
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Kidd Krasner
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10-16-2008 21:49
From: Phil Deakins Nonsense. If I buy one of your products, I own it, and I'm free to do exactly what I want with it, including sell it for a lot more than I paid you for it. You don't own it any more. Yes and no. When you buy a RL book, you own the physical materials, but you haven't bought the copyrights. In SL, when you buy an object from someone else, it's still the case that you haven't bought the copyrights. It's also the case that you haven't bought a real object. It's just a set of bits sitting on an asset server, sometimes copied to a sim, and sometimes copied to client machines. LL could cancel your account the next day and you can't go to either LL or the seller of the object demanding that they give you the bits of data that you paid good Linden dollars for. All you ever buy in SL is a license. What you own are the transferable rights in the license, if any. And yes, in a very large number of cases, I think we would agree that if an object is marked transferable, then you have the right to sell the license for that object for any price you can get. But not in all cases, because the permissions are not a license. At best, they're potential evidence of what the seller may have intended the license to be.
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Kidd Krasner
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10-16-2008 21:50
From: Ricardo Harris Now you're trying to compare RL to this and it just isn't the same. Exactly which section of US copyright law (or other copyright law) says "This law does not apply to copyrighted items created in Second Life"?
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Ricardo Harris
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10-16-2008 21:50
From: Colette Meiji Copyright law would argue differently. Do they apply in sl? I don't think so.
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Ricardo Harris
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10-16-2008 21:52
From: Kidd Krasner Exactly which section of US copyright law (or other copyright law) says "This law does not apply to copyrighted items created in Second Life"? And which says it does?
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Colette Meiji
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Join date: 25 Mar 2005
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10-16-2008 21:55
From: Ricardo Harris Do they apply in sl? I don't think so. Actually they do. Both as far as people bringing in copyrighted images / material into secondlife. And people breeching copyright within Second Life. The man Stroker sued and won a judgment against in Real Life Court over SexGen probably wished that your understanding was true, rather than the actual laws he lost the case because of.
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Gabby Handrick
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Join date: 18 Feb 2007
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10-16-2008 22:01
From: Ricardo Harris Now you're trying to compare RL to this and it just isn't the same. Why not? Can you provide any legal basis backing up your claim that people are somehow immune from copyright law while being in Second Life? Frankly, I find your claim to be ridiculous.
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Ricardo Harris
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10-16-2008 22:03
No matter.
The people you see here opposing what I wrote are the same ones who sell stuff in sl. Of course they don't agree. Having their cake and eating it too, right?
No matter.
Not a soul can tell anyone what they can and cannot do with items they sell. If you want to be so guarded with what you make then don't sell it, keep it under lock and key. Simple enough.
You got to have real big cojones to tell anyone anything once they buy whatever it is you sell. Real big. Then on top of it they then begin to compare SL to RL when they hit a brick wall. Of course they do, it's only natural. Never fails.
Once sold it's not yours anymore. Let go...you can't make rules...let go...let goooo. You'll sleep better at night. Trust me.
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Kidd Krasner
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10-16-2008 22:04
From: Ricardo Harris And which says it does? USC Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 102.
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Ricardo Harris
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10-16-2008 22:05
From: Gabby Handrick Why not? Can you provide any legal basis backing up your claim that people are somehow immune from copyright law while being in Second Life? Frankly, I find your claim to be ridiculous. Can you? No? So we're both in the same boat.
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Colette Meiji
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Join date: 25 Mar 2005
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10-16-2008 22:09
From: Ricardo Harris No matter.
The people you see here opposing what I wrote are the same ones who sell stuff in sl. Of course they don't agree. Having their cake and eating it too, right?
No matter.
Not a soul can tell anyone what they can and cannot do with items they sell. If you want to be so guarded with what you make then don't sell it, keep it under lock and key. Simple enough.
You got to have real big cojones to tell anyone anything once they buy whatever it is you sell. Real big. Then on top of it they then begin to compare SL to RL when they hit a brick wall. Of course they do, it's only natural. Never fails.
Once sold it's not yours anymore. Let go...you can't make rules...let go...let goooo. You'll sleep better at night. Trust me. Are you offering to pay the judgments of the people who get sued for breaking copyright and trademark laws? I think in the Stroker case the judgment was near the 6 figure range.
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Ricardo Harris
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10-16-2008 22:12
You guys kill me. You're all stumbling around like chickens without heads because you don't like customers telling you, you can't go around telling people what they can and can't do with the stuff you try to sell or they happen to buy.
You're even going around looking stuff up to bring here to prove your point. Unfortunately for you, your point is rather dull.
Amusing.
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Colette Meiji
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Join date: 25 Mar 2005
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10-16-2008 22:18
From: Ricardo Harris You guys kill me. You're all stumbling around like chickens without heads because you don't like customers telling you, you can't go around telling people what they can and can't do with the stuff you try to sell or they happen to buy.
You're even going around looking stuff up to bring here to prove your point. Unfortunately for you, your point is rather dull.
Amusing. No we are just saying you are offing dumb advice. I never would sue anyone over my tiny SL store. Heck theres nothing stopping anyone from copying all my numbers down and transferring my stuff if they wanted to spend the time. I surely wouldn't sue them over it. I just try to give enough value they would rather just buy a new shape from me then bother with all that. But my business is pretty tiny and mainly just a service. Other businesses are relatively big deals in Second Life earning their creators thousands of dollars per month. Those people might decide it is worth suing over. 99 times out of 100 you are right nothing will happen to someone who breaks copyright laws. but that 100th time, someone who follows your idea that SL isn't part of the RL legal system ... could end up losing a $50,000 lawsuit.
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Ricardo Harris
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10-16-2008 22:18
From: Kidd Krasner Exactly which section of US copyright law (or other copyright law) says "This law does not apply to copyrighted items created in Second Life"? And all the junk most of you sell is copyrighted, right? I didn't think so.
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Colette Meiji
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10-16-2008 22:22
From: Ricardo Harris And all the junk most of you sell is copyrighted, right?
I didn't think so. Copyright doesn't work like that. If you create something, then you own the copyright. You don't have to file for anything. Its not like a patent.
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Ricardo Harris
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10-16-2008 22:24
From: Colette Meiji No we are just saying you are offing dumb advice.
. Just as my "advice" -which wasn't my intention as I'm not here to give advice to anyone- is dumb so is you guys [creators] thought process of trying to manipulate people who happen to buy from you. Then copyrighted laws are brought out. More then half the stuff sold doesn't work or is faulty to the hilt and you're talking about copyright laws? That's a laugh.
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Bree Giffen
♥♣♦♠ Furrtune Hunter ♠♦♣♥
Join date: 22 Jun 2006
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10-16-2008 22:36
It's people like Ricardo who ruin SL. Complete and utter scumbags without any common decency or morality. Not a shred in him. A lot of people buy items as full perms or copy/transfer and they use it within their license or just by following their own moral compass and saying "I promise not to sell these things except in my own items and with the permissions restricted." You have no moral compass. What kind of person are you? Even a common criminal has the sense to hide in the dark You stand up on the stage and sing and dance that stealing is OK! Ricardo has the audacity to announce the thinking of every single freebie reseller or full perms abuser.
If you are somehow trying to show some 'tough love' to content creators. You're doing it wrong. When you start thinking that all the content creators are bad. That a huge majority of SL users are 'evil' that means there's something wrong with you. I'm serious. You're paranoid or something. Or at least have some kind of mental defect. I'm sorry if that's true but you must seek medical help if that's the case.
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Ricardo Harris
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10-16-2008 22:40
From: Colette Meiji Copyright doesn't work like that. If you create something, then you own the copyright.
You don't have to file for anything.
Its not like a patent. If..if you create something. And we all know what geniuses sl has where each and every single one of them comes up with their own 'first time ever' creations. NO one ever creates anything that was created before. Everything, every single item is created first- hand every single time. /raises hand Duh, teacher. I want to thank you for your lesson on copyright and patents tonight. Who knew? Not I. Luckily you were here to help lil ol' me understand such hard topics. Now my brain hurts. It was too much info for me to take all in at once, teach. Duh.
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Virrginia Tombola
Equestrienne
Join date: 10 Nov 2006
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10-16-2008 22:41
Copyright has nothing to do with the quality of the product (I'm gathering you've had some bad experiences with purchased products, thus the vitriol). The worst novel on the shelf (or for that matter, on the hard drive of an unpublished writer) has an implicit copyright. I'm only familiar with U.S. law here, but that's the case with created works.
Putting something on the internet (or SecondLife) makes it easier to violate copyright, but it certainly isn't some magic "no law here" area.
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Ricardo Harris
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10-16-2008 22:45
From: Bree Giffen It's people like Ricardo who ruin SL. Complete and utter scumbags without any common decency or morality. Not a shred in him. A lot of people buy items as full perms or copy/transfer and they use it within their license or just by following their own moral compass and saying "I promise not to sell these things except in my own items and with the permissions restricted." You have no moral compass. What kind of person are you? Even a common criminal has the sense to hide in the dark You stand up on the stage and sing and dance that stealing is OK! Ricardo has the audacity to announce the thinking of every single freebie reseller or full perms abuser.
If you are somehow trying to show some 'tough love' to content creators. You're doing it wrong. When you start thinking that all the content creators are bad. That a huge majority of SL users are 'evil' that means there's something wrong with you. I'm serious. You're paranoid or something. Or at least have some kind of mental defect. I'm sorry if that's true but you must seek medical help if that's the case. I didn't know you had it in you. I'm impressed. I do hope you guys can't continue to sleep at night wondering who's copying your first-hand- never made before- first ever in the history of mankind items. After all isn't this what greed is all about? Thinking, wondering, hoping and all for the sake of the almighty dollar..er..linden. No, I don't hide. You should know by now I say what I believe. Too bad if some people can't take it. I never said anything about stealing. I said once you sell an item you have no right to tell anyone what they can or can't do with it. Try reading slow next time maybe then you'll understand a bit better what you've read. This is the shit that burns me up. You guys and when I say you guys you know who I mean. You're all the same. Your greed has no bounds. First off, you think what you made only you made it and no one else. Then you want to tell people what to do and all because you're greedy, you think everyone is out to get the stuff you have. Well, guess what? Most people don't want what you have so get off it. It's all about greed.
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Kidd Krasner
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10-16-2008 22:48
From: Ricardo Harris And all the junk most of you sell is copyrighted, right?
I don't sell anything in SL. But yes, the stuff people sell in SL is almost entirely copyrighted. There are only three ways it could not be copyrighted: a) the author explicitly puts it into the public domain; b) it was done as a U. S. government work; c) it wasn't original and the original wasn't copyrighted. Good or bad doesn't enter into the picture.
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