Bye Bye Traffic Bots/Camping

There is no such thing as a system that isn't flawed in some respect. Even if the results were completely random, people would complain.

For any non-random result, there is always a means to "game" the system. Some people need to get comfortable with that reality. The new search goes a long way to help find relevant results. If people don't want to play, that is their choice. It is time that they learned to use the system and have it represent what they offer.

That's fine. But "learning the system" is very different from "finding secrets within" the system, which is what Phil just described. If it really was acceptable for people to "learn" the system then every single detail about it could be posted publically, not just on this forum, but on Google's site.

What I'm hoping is that Search won't go the same way that scripting in some fields (eg, weapons) has, where market dominance is largely judged by who finds and exploits the most bugs (maybe beneficial bugs but still bugs) in the platforms.

It isn't a social club, you know. It's survival of the fittest - just like all business everywhere. I already gave away a big jewel in this forum, and I deeply regretted it later, because of the nature of many of the people here. I'm certainly not going to give any more jewels away. There are no "secrets" in the system that can't be uncovered. If people want to know, they can find out for themselves. If you don't like it, c'est la vie.

I used the word "secret" because that's the word that 3ring used. I.e. someone knows something but they are not sharing it.

Right. But in order for capitalism to work as best it can, the definition of "fitness" should be directly tied to customer satisfaction.

Yes, marketing is a part of consumer satisfaction because customers that can't find your products can't be satisfied by them, but this case of search isn't even good marketing practice. As an example, a builder of superb artistic furniture could lose out in Search because she's primarily an artist, not a programmer, and thus isn't skilled at reverse engineering - which is effectively what you're doing when you "hunt for secrets" this way.

Plus, of course, SL's business model should ideally be _reducing_ the amount of "survival of the fittest", not increasing it. Increasing it only brings about the threat of loss of content variety and catastophic price competition.

Agreed. There won't be any customer satisfaction without customers though

C'est la vie - everywhere - in all worlds.

SL is just a world, like any other world. It doesn't need to do things to ensure variety of items at all. That's up to the population.

Ok, you're a money-hungry capitalist and will use all the tricks you know to better your business. That's fine. I've got no problem with that.

But how do I, speaking as a consumer, now interpret search results? Would I be better off just going to the first places listed?

It was easier with traffic, IMO - you search for stuff and throw out the hits that were obviously gamed (and they were obvious) then take a stab at the other high-ranked results. Maybe it wasn't perfect but it wasn't horrible, IMO. Now, as somebody who has cash to spend but doesn't want to spend all her time TPing around to places that have gamed the system in the new and non-obvious say, I'm feeling a little bit annoyed that I can no longer make a best-guess on where to go.

Well done, rabid crusaders against traffic bots. You've helped stamp out something that was easy to spot and, compared to things like land bots, really didn't have any impact on the grid.

There is no "c'est la vie" in Second Life.

And the population won't be able to do it if the "survival of the fittest" metric dominates and narrows the market to a state where it's dominated by a very few big businesses. True, this has not happened yet, but it is what that metric results in.

Why interpret the results? You always had to visit various places to see if any has something you like. It's no different with the appliance results. If you are upset because you insist on not buying from places that do things to improve their rankings, then (a) it's happens everywhere - in all search engines - in all worlds - it's normal, and (b) please yourself what you do. It's no skin off anyone else's nose.

Ok.. Great. Thanks.

It's been happening since I joined in Dec 2006. There have been *big* (well-known) places for various things since then, and they are still up there.

But SL is much better than RL because, in SL, you can set up a store anywhere - you don't need to locate it where lots of people pass by. It cost *very* little to set up and promote, and to succeed with it - and quickly. SL business is a much more level playing field than RL business.

Which it needs to be, as it offers (generally) much lower profits.

The idea of having to find technical "secrets" in order to benefit from it is opposed to this model, though. Indeed, it's opposed to the general idea of Second Life being a platform as a whole. Musicians, artists, performers, poets, etc.. there was supposed to be the whole idea of these people getting together in a metaverse, but if a technical "secret" requirement is introduced in order to get noticed, all of that goes out of the window.

I still think SL should have a search that looks like this: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lFXta_XDJv8 . Search the content, not the parcels.

I think that they have given us the lion's share of what we need to know in order to optimize. The problem was that we didn't understand the relationship of it all until we had someone who worked with the Google Search App to explain it. The minutiae that are secret are the equalizers that will set one place apart from another in the event of an identical copy of a parcel description by a thief.

We all have our own views about things. To me, SL is a place to do real business. Others have different views.

But let me repeat... the are no secrets that can't be uncovered. I told this forum about the power of IBLs and link text. It wasn't a secret that couldn't be discovered by anyone who was minded to find out, and neither is anything else. If people don't want to find out for themselves, then that's the way it is. Nobody is responsible to pass things on.

[added]
Don't forget that, when I pass things on here, I pass it to direct competitors. I've knowingly done that in the past - I've done my bit already.

No matter what system is used, there will always be opponents. So be it. Though I must say it sometimes seems that some people complain to complain, if you get what I mean.

To my opinion it comes down to this on the business side:

- There is a new search, which uses a certain set of metrics to rank a place in the results. Just like the World Wide Web always had.
- Some businesses will try their best in getting the best place they can get, using the knowledge that is available.
- Other businesses either do not care, or do not have the knowledge, they will not get the best results.
- There are some metrics available that are not well known and get you even better results. If you want them, you will have to search for them.
- A few businesses will abuse the Search by pretending to be something they are not, and attract consumers with false info (search for sex toys, end up in a furniture shop).

And this on the consumers side:

- Some people hated the traffic system, and are glad with the new search.
- Some people preferred the traffic system, and dislike the new search.
- Some people dislike any search. They will complain whatever system is introduced.
- Most people do not care the least, they search and explore, or search and buy.

Let's agree on three existing bot farms and check on them a month after the client changes go live. I'll bet you L$1,000 they're all still there. Campers are already falling by the wayside as sim owners are discovering the wonders of botting, so I won't bet on them.

My bet is based on the theory that the people who run bot farms are shitty business people. They don't know how to get customers legitimately, so they game the system. If they truly understood how SL works, they'd realize what little effect traffic has- but I would argue that they don't know/care. They just know it's one easy, cheap way for them to influence the system, so they're doing it, and will continue to until they close up shop. Hell, people are still naming their lots with bunches of spaces and non-alphanum characters on the front-end, thinking that gives them an edge up, when all it does is make it harder for people to know where the hell they are.

Unless the thief is the one who's worked with the GSA. Witness the problem.

Not entirely true - remember, this is customized to LL's needs and this system is very dissimilar from rl needs.

And as I've said.. it's ridiculous, and opposite the whole notion of efficiency, to say that someone who's happily making excellent textures should have to take time out to learn reverse engineering in order to get their business noticed (while, for example, a scripter - who probably knows reverse engineering anyway as it's a technical skill - can do so much more easily).

Nobody is responsible to pass things on, but the fact that they would refuse to shows that for some reason they think that everyone knowing these things will cause them harm. Yet if it's really true that, if everyone knows this then the system doesn't work, then it isn't as simple as "people who make the effort can discover these things" as you put it. If everyone was to make the effort you would have to find a new way to distinguish some..

Change the bet a little, and I'll take you up on it:-

Let's agree on three existing bot farms and check on them a month after the next forced client upgrade, as long as it has the new results in the Places tab.

The reason I say that is because, although v1.20 will come out with the new Places search, very many people won't upgrade their client, and the bots are likely to remain until the traffic rankings are gone completely.

And let's make one of the bot farms mine

It's the same anywhere. It's no different in SL.

Because of the information that I've shared in this forum, I already had one direct competitor climb the rankings to right underneath me, and another one take my #2 spot and push me down to #3. I was content at #2 for a long time, but I decided to have the #1 spot, and I got it. What I know is called having a competitive advantage, and I'm not sharing it. Over time, everything will become known, of course, but not from me at this time.

Reading this part of your post, I think it is you who does not understand, instead of the bot runners. What you are forgetting, is that the users reading this forum are a small percentage of the actual active users. I would not be surprised if over 90% of the SL users type in a keyword and go to the first result.

Furthermore, only use the word legitimately if it makes any sense. In this context it does not.

You are entitled to your opinion, as anyone is. But argumenting your opinion, you should do with real arguments

Cancel my acceptance of your bet. I wrote it before you added that crap to your post.

Aw, I didn't know you had a bot farm, and certainly didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I have done search optimization as well, and understand it to be an important part of business. I've just always personally drawn the line at traffic bots.

I think you and Marcel are both fine business people.