I found stolen skin :(

OMG. I buzzed this guy's store, and there is my RAC Bridget skin, still named Bridget for about 25% of RAC's price.

I doubt someone spends 100 hours for one single skin. Besides that, once you created one skin, you can make various versions of it with a few clicks more (that much i know too about graphics and photoshop). You can have every version of a makeup/nailcolor/eyelashes saved as a layer and the shape/shadows as one too and one "skin" layer in which you could simply change color, save in all diferent variations/combinations of the makeup/nail/etc. layers.

And who in his mind would spend 50 weeks á 40h/day creating skins? Not everyone playing SL is workless. Most go to school/study/have a job, so i see this as pretty unrealistic numbers you've choosen.

Besides that, whats so unrealistic about 2600 skins to be sold? There are 10 milion accounts created of which at any give time 35-45k are online, which makes 850-1000k unique users per month (1.3 mio according to the SL economic statistics within the last 60 days). When every 100th of those buys a skin, thats 8500 in total (which can be distributed around the popular skin makers). Some also buy 2 or 3 skins with different colors or whole sets.

Take a look at the economic statistics of SL within the last month
http://secondlife.com/whatis/economy_stats.php

Please, take a look at the amount of money spent last December and you'll see that the numbers giving me right.

1 - 500 L$ 137,030
501 - 2,000 L$ 57,205
2001 - 5,000 L$ 44,686
5,001 - 10,000 L$ 31,005
10,001 - 50,000 L$ 52,012
50,001 - 100,000 L$ 10,953
100,001 - 500,000 L$ 7,830
500,001 - 1,000,000 L$ 657
Over 1,000,000 L$ 413
Total Customers Spending Money In-World 341,791

So, 40% of all residents spend less then 500L$
56.9% of all residents spend less then 2000L$
and 66% of all residents spent less then 5000L$ per month.

So there are only 1/3 of the SL playerbase, which could possibly be affording that prices.



Chip Midnight:
Yea, i know. But many people think like that. I can't change their way to think, so you can't either. I haven't put that much money either... yet. At a later point, i plan to put in some more money in and get an Premium Account in order to buy a piece of land where i could run my security service mentioned above (small HQ and place for the ingame server to run). But until the project is close to it's finishing, i wont invest that much ingame (simply no point in having to pay for premium account/tier for land unless i have the project done, which would probably bring some money in to cover that fees)

True, once you get the base set in and are finished, it is easier to create new nail and lipstick colors....but creating the main base takes time. 100 hours or more is understandable....I probably spent more time than that over the course of 3 or 4 months working in photoshop on skins and still am not happy with what has come out. As I stated in a previous post, I ended up having to ask for help with body shading and started over with body templates in .psd from another designer (with permission!!). So....100 hours+ in the books for me and I still don't have an original, 100% my work base skin done.

Interesting theory, but don't the assets and asset modifications (with exception to client side character folder assets) reside and take place entirely on the servers? In other words, how does this "modified viewer" affect changes governed by the servers (which are not open source at this point)?

I would not bat an eye at the creation and promotion of a skin exceeding 100hrs. Have you given it a try? It sounds like you haven't actually gone through the process of making a quality skin and selling it successfully. Perhaps you should do that first before commenting on how much an individual's time is worth.


I know a few actually. They are quite of sound mind and incredibly hard working. Contrary to what appears to be your belief, content creation takes a LOT of work to do and promote. A skin creator has to spend time not only on the skins themselves, but the builds for their stores, promotions, accounting. They wear many hats and are in effect running their own business.

It's true some creators choose not to make content creation in SL their full time job. So what? Other people do. What they choose to do in order to make a living is really not up for you to decide.


8500 skins purchased a month, distributed around how many popular skin makers? 5? 10? 20? Let's not forget the folks who make skins who are perhaps less successful as well. Let's consider that there are 20 big names in skins (there are more, i'm sure) - that's *maybe* 425 sales a month per creator... and how many people buy a skin a month?


Again, assuming that those customers would necessarily buy a skin every month is not logical. There are plenty other things one can spend money on in world. It's not a matter of cost - it's a matter of practicality of use. Would i WANT 12 skins a year at that price, even if the skins didn't look right on my av? No.

Skins are things that content creators invest a LOT of time in, but they are ALSO very personal things to many people. They define aesthetics, personality, ethnicity and to some degree culture. They can be right for one person and wrong for another. Their purchase cannot really be defined by an 'x number of people MUST buy this product until business is in black ink' generalization.


PS: BTW - if the content creator owns a sim and bought it from LL, they're looking at around $435USD/month for the first year ($295 a month after that) just to break even. THat's 515 skins a month at $225L each before even THINKING about putting food on the table. Ouch!

You got me competly wrong here.

I didn't wanted to say, that this 66% of the people buy a skin every month. It wasn't even directly related to skins.
All i wanted is to show, how much on avarage people spend each month. And 57% of all people who spend money in Second Life, spend less than 2000L$ (which is less than 10 USD). It doesn't matter what for they spent their money for, for now it's only important to see how much people spend per month.

Let's say, you want sell a product for 2500L$, then only 44% of all residents would be able to afford/willing to pay for it. Or to speak in numbers from December: 147.000 people would be willing to pay that price (notice: i didn't say to buy a skin). But if you offer that product for 350L$, in theory everyone (take out the 1-10L$ transactions for demos etc.) would be willing to pay that price, so there are 341.000 possible buyers, which is more then double.

And with that affordable price, people would more likely buy 2 or 3 such products (depends on product of course, in case of skin and clothes, thats pretty realistic).

On the other side, when the products are expensive, a possible buyer would clearly think twice before he makes a decition and only buy one of it.

Low price doesn't necessary mean, that there will be less profit. Lower price can often be more profitable than higher price. You earn less per sold piece, but if the demand is high enough (cause of affordable price) much more items are being sold.

That being said, you'll maybe notice that i was on an school for economics (well it's like high school, just with economics as required subject) and thats where we learn that high price doesn't always mean highest profits.

i have an anti-thieving info sign at my vendor locations; on it, i note that my 100 L basic bodyoil is only 68 cents u.s. - less than the price of a candy bar.

but something else to note, if one is cashing out at all, they only get 35 cents per 100 Ls. (lol - more like the price of chewing gum!)

so anyone envying the 'riches' a creator enjoys - lol, well, usually they don't really know what it's like to run their own shop. :\

My thinking is that I'd rather sell 11 items at 100L each than one item at 1000L. It works very good for me. But I can see that skins might be different. I don't know, but I suspect that many people would think more highly of a skin if it is a high price, and think less of it if it is a very low price.

True, but i think it's rather unrealistic to expect a sim owner to make almost 18 sales every day of a month just to make tier, and an additional 69 per day to approach the yearly wages mentioned by Ann earlier in this thread.

That's really hard to do even in the case of other more salable products such as clothing, unless you're really, really popular. Those who DO make it worth the time deserve every penny of it if the product is right for me.

And that is the crux of the matter - at the current value of the L$, it is easy for the moderate SL user to spend money on a 'want to buy' or 'not' basis. And the things that do cost more generally DO require more consideration because they DO happen to be things that may mean more to the individual user. Would i buy a skin that looked like crap but only cost $225? No. Would I buy a skin I felt best defined my personality, regardless of price? Yes.

These are decisions that are not defined by price, and anyone who bases their purchase on such a personal product solely on price is probably not going to enjoy the project in the long run, OR return to purchase more.

I really think you overestimate just how many sales these folks make daily. And for those who are doing well... clearly they are doing something to deserve it. Why should an entire market be punished by unscrupulous thieves?

@Phil: Skins are very different. I have no idea what you sell, but do people get the same use out of your items as they might with a skin? These products define a look, a personality, a culture. They are the base upon which clothing, hair and other attachments are affixed. Could you/would you change skins like popping candy? Admittedly there are a distinct few who DO, but that's not the norm among the people I've come in contact with.

@Phil: That's my tought too


I'm not Phil, but i'd like to comment this too. I would like to have a few outfits/sets which are pretty much different from each other, which also means different skins, so i can change it depending on my mood ^^

The first few things i bought, was some fantasy cloth and a fitting skin for a elf like outfit (only thing i miss are some nice, long prim hairs, prefered with customizable haircolor or at least white, black or blonde. Any suggestions? ). Next on my list is a drow outfit, which is bit more. And one sexy all alround set.

For the last one, Abyss seems to be a pretty nice stuff. After reading this thread, i payed them a visit. The skins there are pretty nice, but like i said bit expensive. But there was some other nice stuff to, with reasonable prices. I pretty much like that black dress (with the miniskirt and visible belly/stomach area with the jacket) for somewhat 200-300L$, as well as the camoflague bra (~100L$-ish) and the hot pants (also ~100-150L$-ish) and the combat belt (200 L$).

Guess next time i got some money, i'd get the clothes first. Skin is still a bit to expensive for now, maybe sometimes in future.


P.S. Thanks to Sae Luan, without your thread wouldn't found the Abyss Shop!

QFT! I spent a long time shopping for a skin that was perfect. I spent a lot, but this is it for me. I've also worked in Photoshop for years, and know how difficult it can be to do something as detailed as skin. I'm not sure I'm even going to try, and I commend those who do! I'm willing to pay more for a skin than anything else for those reasons. To see them ripped off this way makes me angry. I do web design in RL and would be livid if I saw my hard work not only ripped off, but making money for somebody else!

;o cool glad to help, always.

I'm really happy to see how many people are standing up for this issue. I've had about a ton of IMs in world, both from non creators and skin creators alike who are very glad to see this being blown up. You guys are definately putting a dent in this guy's business, awesome.

He's got b**ls, though, I'll give him that. I would have long ago given up my "theft" if I were him. I think he's feeling the heat, though....keeps moving his store.

Makes you wonder if he is making sales with having to move from place to place to place. He keeps having to pay rent, so WHO is buying his stuff on the one day he might be located somewhere?!

I've wondered that, too. Unless he's working out deals to rent by the hour, I don't see how he can be making any money.

With a classified and P2P teleporting, moving frequently wouldn't necessarily kill all sales.

@ Dinalya - I thought about that too, but the conclusion I come up with is that if he sales even one skin, he's paid his rent at most spots, if they are just rental shops. I rarely see vendor spots that are extremely expensive anymore. This guy seems to be popping up both in malls and on parcels. Parcels normall cost a bit more to rent, but still, selling only two or three of "his skins" is probably going to pay that rent.

Yes, I did suggest that skins might be different to what I sell - very low prim, quality furniture (blatant plug )

Are there any smart legal types around to help answer some copyright registration questions?

It's $45 to register visual arts. Which you can easily make back if what you are registering will sell well.

So say you register your textures, if someone steals them to sell and you have those official papers, will that speed up the process of Linden Labs having to shut them down?

My friend file a DCMA in late Nov, and the items weren't removed until early this month. :/

I am not totally in the loop on this, so please excuse my ignorance here. I was doing some shopping yesterday, and stumbled across this place (I think). It looks like the guy is selling RaC skins, but he has now changed the names. I own 2 RaC skins, and tried his demo of the one I already owned, and sure enough, it was exact. Looking at edit, it lists the creator and its not Mallory Cowen. So I TP to RaC, right-clicked something on the wall, edit, and under Mallory's name for group set, it lists the name of the place I found the alleged ripped skins???
Has she been black-mailed into letting these skins be sold? I didnt buy anything from him, as I couldnt see any reference to RaC (like an outlet for retired skins or something like that). But at 999l instead of 4K, I would imagine this could put at least a dent in RaCs sales.

Allysa
=^.^=

I am not sure we are talking about the same person here, a group of people, or alts.

But............I am a sim owner, being harassed now by people who have decided a resident on one of my sims is selling stolen skins. Private IM's have been copied and pasted onto note cards and passed to me without being requested. Remarks like, "What do you expect their Brazillian," a clear racial comment. are made to me. Also remarks like well your probably their friend, insinuating I am knowingly collaborating with an alleged stolen content creator.

A lot of the names on this thread possibly are content creators and you make your money that way. That is your business and good luck to you. Any who are having their content ripped off whatever it may be I am sorry that is happening to you.

But when people come to me and tell me they are going to slander me as a sim owner in collaboration with this sort of allegation by telling others of my alleged duplicity, make racial comments, and generally abuse me and my residents, they will get no co-operation from me at all.

By attempting to damage my business they are no better than the people they allege are damaging theirs.

I will give this information once here, and only the once. I am a sim owner who leases(sells) lands on their private estates. All residents on my estates are welcome to stay without harassment as long as they obey the covenant and Linden TOS and Community Standards. Until, and if, a Linden Lab Employee tells me this person is breaking those rules they will not be ejected. If any other person has an issue with any of my residents as regards the breaking of those rules, take it to Linden Labs. I will not ban people or eject them because another avatar decides to harass me thinking I will cave in to unproved allegations and hearsay, or insult me. What I will do is Ban and Eject that person for harassing and abusing me and file my own abuse report as I have already done so more than once over this issue. Remember multiple abuse reports against you are just as likely to get you banned by IP as the alleged perpetrator.

So to the earlier poster who complained of being banned and ejected by sim owners, I have no sympathy with you whatsoever seeing as what has been happening to me lately.

People set up a kangaroo court and decide without qualification that they have the right to act as judge jury and executioner.

So keep out of my life and I will keep out of yours, come on my sims and create trouble for me or my residents and I will use LL's tools to deal with you. You have problems with someone breaking TOS take it to the people who make the TOS, not to me.

I'm really sad to see this happen. More sad knowing that a thief has found a sim to harbour him. Even as an outsider the proof seems fairly conclusive that the person in question is selling stolen skins, although I'm presuming the original creators have contacted appropriate parties.

However, I agree, threatening tactics and name calling are not going to do anyone any good and only serve to inflame the unfortunate situation.

Sadly people like this thief likely have a string of alts, ready to go with appropriate inventories to perpetuate their crime. It stops when they get bored or no longer see value in what they are doing. There is no way to apprehend them, and even IP banning isn't enough in some cases.

It falls to the slow moving system or vigilantes to deal with the situation either within the letter of the TOS or by educating others. Cut off the supply, and these people leave. The problem is, not everyone is aware of this activity and will continue to feed the thief.

I honestly wish there was an expedient way to deal with this kind of theft. I hope one day there will be. Good luck!