So, why can't LL???????
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7314353.stm
The comments on Slashdot are strangely similar to the 85,742 threads on bots here on the SL forums.....
http://games.slashdot.org/games/08/03/26/2050250.shtml
These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE
Blizzard goes after Bots in WoW |
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Isablan Neva
Mystic
Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 2,907
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03-27-2008 07:50
So, why can't LL???????
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7314353.stm The comments on Slashdot are strangely similar to the 85,742 threads on bots here on the SL forums..... http://games.slashdot.org/games/08/03/26/2050250.shtml _____________________
![]() http://slurl.com/secondlife/TheBotanicalGardens/207/30/420/ |
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Dekka Raymaker
thinking very hard
Join date: 4 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,898
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03-27-2008 07:51
because LL is more like a light breeze?
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Xal Dryke
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 150
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03-27-2008 07:52
So, why can't LL??????? Good question, but I guess since WoW is pretty much the juggernaut of the MMO world, they have the resources to spare to combat the problem. |
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Dekka Raymaker
thinking very hard
Join date: 4 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,898
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03-27-2008 07:56
Maybe the Lindens are watching, waiting for the outcome, if it's in WOW favour maybe they would be more confident in taking action.
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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03-27-2008 07:56
because LL is more like a light breeze? He he he. You'd think bots would be designed to withstand heavy weather...... _____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
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Chosen Few
Alpha Channel Slave
Join date: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 7,496
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03-27-2008 08:00
So, why can't LL??????? Because unlike in WoW, there are legitimate uses for bots in SL. It's not bots themselves that are problematic; it's how they're used. When someone games the traffic system with a hundred mindless zombies floating in the sky above their place, that's wrong. But when someone uses a bot quickly to assemble a complex scene from a hundred sculpties in just a few seconds, instead of spending six hours doing it by hand, that's a good thing. It's just like push scripts, or particles, or rezzers, or anything else. There are good uses and bad uses for everything. You want to go after someone who's abusing a thing, fine. But never blame the thing itself for the actions of its user. _____________________
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Marianne McCann
Feted Inner Child
Join date: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 7,145
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03-27-2008 08:02
I said here somewhere recently, an I'll say it again. I suspect strongly dat the days of the (camping/traffic type) bots in SL are numbered.
Mari _____________________
![]() "There's nothing objectionable nor illegal in having a child-like avatar in itself and we must assume innocence until proof of the contrary." - Lewis PR Linden "If you find children offensive, you're gonna have trouble in this world " - Prospero Linden |
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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03-27-2008 08:07
I said here somewhere recently, an I'll say it again. I suspect strongly dat the days of the (camping/traffic type) bots in SL are numbered. For traffic bots, I bet you're right.. The recent LL blog about improving search results says.. Traffic Matters… kind of – Traffic is a number for each parcel which is based on the amount of Residents who visited, and the time spent on that parcel out of their total time inworld that day. It’s calculated using a complex algorithm. Read more about traffic in the Knowledge Base (KB). Traffic is still used to help determine relevance with the new Search, but not as much as in the old version. http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/03/26/tips-to-improve-your-search-ranking/ https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=3941 As I read this, the traffic bots that hang out at a place 24/7 don't give it any more traffic than ones that, say, logged in for 15 minutes once a day. Hopefully people who run these bots will read this and take the hint. _____________________
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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03-27-2008 08:09
LL doesn't want to give the wrong impression that they care or that they have a future. If they lift a finger, it might give the wrong impressions.
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Yosef Okelly
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 2,692
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03-27-2008 08:20
Businesses are ran by bean counters. LL will go after bots when it is better for the bottom line to do so.
I know that sounds pesimistic and I really don't intend for it to be negative. It's just the way it is. LL needs to make money in order to continue providing us with a world to play in. Each bot is just another resident which adds to the numbers which are then touted to the shareholders as proof of growth and stability. If you want the bots removed, you are going to have to show that bots are taking more out of the game than they put in. It would be easier to identify the reasons bots exists and fix the problems that cause people to turn to bots as a solution. |
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Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
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03-27-2008 08:27
Perhaps because SL and WoW are totally dissimilar. WoW is a game and SL isn't for a start.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
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03-27-2008 08:28
Also, Blizzard is playing the copyright card. With SL being open source it would be rather difficult for them to take the same tack.
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Rhaorth Antonelli
Registered User
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 7,425
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03-27-2008 08:54
For traffic bots, I bet you're right.. The recent LL blog about improving search results says.. http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/03/26/tips-to-improve-your-search-ranking/ https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=4417&task=knowledge&questionID=3941 As I read this, the traffic bots that hang out at a place 24/7 don't give it any more traffic than ones that, say, logged in for 15 minutes once a day. Hopefully people who run these bots will read this and take the hint. alas this info about traffic points to the same info that I once pointed to in here, only to be told that this info is old and no longer valid... no one believes the KB or the wiki... I just wish they would abolish traffic and give us back our ratings.... it was fun to be able to rate someone _____________________
Morpheus Linden: But then I change avs pretty often too, so often, I look nothing like my avatar. ![]() They are taking away the forums... it could be worse, they could be taking away the forums AND Second Life... |
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Whispering Hush
™
Join date: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 277
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03-27-2008 09:05
Also, Blizzard is playing the copyright card. With SL being open source it would be rather difficult for them to take the same tack. Nope, open source does not limit copyright in any way shape or form. |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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03-27-2008 09:07
LL favors bot use in many areas.
In the infamous words of Torley Linden regarding the intrusive Opt-out sheep bot - "Cool" Still they have expressed some reservations about Land-Bots, and of course they know a gamed traffic system is useless. |
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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03-27-2008 09:15
Also, Blizzard is playing the copyright card. With SL being open source it would be rather difficult for them to take the same tack. the viewer is open source. The rest is not. What they do in the future is still not known, especially since there will be a new CEO, who may see the future differently. |
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Starfire Desade
Can I play with YOUR mind
Join date: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 404
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03-27-2008 09:24
When traffic bot runners read that, they won't realize that they should just stop, they will just create more alts and have each one log in for about an hour each day at one location instead of 24 hours... they will then switch to a new alt to work the next hour.
This will just increase processor time as each bot logs in and out. They may even decrease the time spent so they can do more bot logins... let's see... a mainland sim - 35 bots (allowing for 5 real avi's) - every 15 minutes is 140 bots per hour - 24 hours per day is 3360 bots per day, each one logging in and out - hogging processor time, creating lag. |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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03-27-2008 09:29
When traffic bot runners read that, they won't realize that they should just stop, they will just create more alts and have each one log in for about an hour each day at one location instead of 24 hours... they will then switch to a new alt to work the next hour. This will just increase processor time as each bot logs in and out. They may even decrease the time spent so they can do more bot logins... let's see... a mainland sim - 35 bots (allowing for 5 real avi's) - every 15 minutes is 140 bots per hour - 24 hours per day is 3360 bots per day, each one logging in and out - hogging processor time, creating lag. LOL I kinda wondered about this as well. |
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Zannah Holbrook
Freeloader
Join date: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 14
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03-27-2008 09:29
Because unlike in WoW, there are legitimate uses for bots in SL. It's not bots themselves that are problematic; it's how they're used. When someone games the traffic system with a hundred mindless zombies floating in the sky above their place, that's wrong. But when someone uses a bot quickly to assemble a complex scene from a hundred sculpties in just a few seconds, instead of spending six hours doing it by hand, that's a good thing. It's just like push scripts, or particles, or rezzers, or anything else. There are good uses and bad uses for everything. You want to go after someone who's abusing a thing, fine. But never blame the thing itself for the actions of its user. Exactly. Bots in WoW are used to do things afk that Blizzard wants you to be at the keyboard doing. Leveling your character from 1 to 70(?) is somthing to be achieved. That dynamic doesen't exist in SL. You build your Avatar, get new clothes, camp or buy L$, and do it again. You can pretty much do whatever you want to - and you can do it for free if you like. Gotta pay a fee to even access WoW. LL gets a percentage when you buy or sell L$, there is no way to get them out of thin air. In WoW, you can go kill stuff or do quests and the money is created from nothing. Get a bunch of Gold farming bots to amass large amounts of in game currency to be sold on the black market - thats probably what they are really after. Sony Online Entertainment (EQ, EQ2, etc) just wrote a deal with a company that manages games like SL where everything you can achieve can be bought with RL cash, up until that time their stance had been to frown on it. Now that they've found a way to make money on it - it seems ok. The playerbase of the games that do not have those types of dynamics are a little bit peaved tho. Bots in SL seem to be an annoyance - but removing the ability to do it will hurt the benign users too. Its been said before, remove the perceived reason that so many bots exist and they will probably go away. |
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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03-27-2008 10:47
Bots in SL seem to be an annoyance - but removing the ability to do it will hurt the benign users too. Its been said before, remove the perceived reason that so many bots exist and they will probably go away. It's like saying fighting thiefs, scammers and spammers and their use of bots is bad for the player base. |
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Ravenhurst Xeno
Consiracy with no purpose
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 147
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03-27-2008 10:53
I think there is an important point being missed here. WoW software is closed sourced, closely gaurded and heavily armored against any sort of tampering. Using WoW even requires that the client computer run a watchdog process that monitors for bots and other suspicious behavior. Even with all that, blizzard is incapable of stopping bots from invading WoW.
Bots are now a fact of life in both virtual worlds and more and more in RL. The idea of banning them is archaic and almost certainly impossible. From the grid's point of view, what really is the difference between data generated by a person, a person assisted by clever macros and scripts, an autonomous program, or even an honest to goodness machine AI? The target of regulation should be behaviour not the origination of that behaviour. |
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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03-27-2008 15:26
I think there is an important point being missed here. WoW software is closed sourced, closely gaurded and heavily armored against any sort of tampering. Using WoW even requires that the client computer run a watchdog process that monitors for bots and other suspicious behavior. Even with all that, blizzard is incapable of stopping bots from invading WoW.. Which is of course exactly how SL should be....especially with REAL money. This point seems to elude.....In wow you dont have people running off with $750,000US!!!! It's all about getting real.....in terms of safeguarding this virtual reality from the inevitable further surge and influx of crooks and exploiters. Bots are now a fact of life in both virtual worlds and more and more in RL. The idea of banning them is archaic and almost certainly impossible. From the grid's point of view, what really is the difference between data generated by a person, a person assisted by clever macros and scripts, an autonomous program, or even an honest to goodness machine AI? The target of regulation should be behaviour not the origination of that behaviour. Of course it's the people not bots themsleves, but since the lowest common denominator will float to the top like river scum, so it is only practical to outlaw BOTS and use a heavy banhammer. It's also practical to overide the the whole Open Source thing. It's already been proven that allowing that community to work with the code is not trustworthy...ala the Copybot, which led to people's work being stolen. There is a fairly large cadre of people who believe it should all be free and as anarchic as possible. |
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Annabelle Babii
Unholier than thou
Join date: 2 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,797
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03-27-2008 15:55
4.2 You agree to use Second Life as provided, without unauthorized software or other means of access or use. You will not make unauthorized works from or conduct unauthorized distribution of the Linden Software. Linden Lab has designed the Service to be experienced only as offered by Linden Lab at the Websites or partner websites. Linden Lab is not responsible for any aspect of the Service that is accessed or experienced using software or other means that are not provided by Linden Lab. You agree not to create or provide any server emulators or other software or other means that provide access to or use of the Servers without the express written authorization of Linden Lab. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may use and create software that provides access to the Servers for substantially similar function (or subset thereof) as the Viewer; provided that such software is not used for and does not enable any violation of these Terms of Service. Linden Lab is not obligated to allow access to the Servers by any software that is not provided by Linden Lab, and you agree to cease using, creating, distributing or providing any such software at the request of Linden Lab. You are prohibited from taking any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on Linden Lab's infrastructure. You may not charge any third party for using the Linden Software to access and/or use the Service, and you may not modify, adapt, reverse engineer (except as otherwise permitted by applicable law), decompile or attempt to discover the source code of the Linden Software, or create any derivative works of the Linden Software or the Service, or otherwise use the Linden Software except as expressly provided in this Agreement. You may not copy or distribute any of the written materials associated with the Service. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may copy the Viewer that Linden Lab provides to you, for backup purposes and may give copies of the Viewer to others free of charge. Further, you may use and modify the source code for the Viewer as permitted by any open source license agreement under which Linden Lab distributes such Viewer source code. i.e. LL does not support third party viewers and software, and any third party software based on LL's open-source code must be provided FREE OF CHARGE. Since many bots are programmed, and that programming sold, the programmers are in violation of the limited licence for the viewer code. and "You are prohibited from taking any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on Linden Lab's infrastructure. " -sounds like an apt description of a bot runner. also.. 2.4 Account registrations are limited per unique person. Linden Lab may require you to submit an indication of unique identity in the account registration process; e.g. credit card or other payment information, or SMS message code or other information requested by Linden Lab. When an account is created, the information given for the account must match the address, phone number, and/or other unique identifier information associated with the identification method. You may register multiple accounts per identification method only at Linden Lab's sole discretion. A single account may be used by a single legal entity at Linden Lab's sole discretion and subject to Linden Lab's requirements. Additional accounts beyond the first account per unique user may be subject to fees upon account creation. LL has already reserved the right to limit avatars per user - they just have not as yet enforced it. They may also choose without warning to begin charging again for alts. Everything's already in place for a bot ban - should they choose to do it. _____________________
Deep inside we're all the same - we're an amorphous fog clouod.
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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03-27-2008 16:13
any third party software based on LL's open-source code must be provided FREE OF CHARGE. Since many bots are programmed, and that programming sold, the programmers are in violation of the limited licence for the viewer code. Third-party viewers based on LL's open source drops can charge whatever they want for their viewer, but since those are subject to the GPL license it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. Most bots are not going to use the viewer source though since it's far too bloated and unwieldy for that purpose and they'll likely go with libSL which I think is licensed under the BSD license which does allow for derivative work to be resold. |
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Nathan Childs
Registered User
Join date: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 56
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03-27-2008 16:17
Of course it's the people not bots themsleves, but since the lowest common denominator will float to the top like river scum, so it is only practical to outlaw BOTS and use a heavy banhammer. It's also practical to overide the the whole Open Source thing. It's already been proven that allowing that community to work with the code is not trustworthy...ala the Copybot, which led to people's work being stolen. There is a fairly large cadre of people who believe it should all be free and as anarchic as possible. Copybot came out long before any source code was made available by LL. Your assertion that it proves the opensource community untrustworthy is disingenious and false. |