VAT-Another one bites the dust.

It's time to get over this VAT nonsense. We residents who came to SL from Europe have lived with VAT for years just like Americans have lived with a 55mph national speed limit.

The simple fact is that we have to pay it and companies who trade in Europe, wherther based in EU or outside it, have to charge it. It is an open and shut book.

I have a question. I don't as yet have land or any assets per se, but apparently VAT will apply to my subscription paid to LL. My subscription is in US$ but what I'd like to know is exactly where am I paying? A London office, US office or where? I was under the impression that any taxes applicable were applied by the source i.e. the location the service is provided from.

FYI the whole of Europe do not have the same VAT rate. In the UK it is 17.5%. Health care is not free, we pay an entirely separate tax for that and the two are not linked.

I am not complaing about the VAT I have to pay, hell I've paid it all my life.

Unfortunately it's not an open and shut book, that's the problem. Some items are VAT free, including items purchased abroad. Some companies fall below the threshold whereby they have to charge VAT.

If I buy a book from America, no VAT is applicable. If I buy the very same book in electronic format from an American website as an e-book, then VAT could be applicable.

In certain circumstances VAT laws differ depending upon whether the consumer is a private individual or a business.

When this directive was introduced a virtual world such as Second Life wasn't considered, that's the real issue.

When goods are delivered electronically, then the source can change from the country of production to the country of delivery. This was introduced because companies like AOL were able to undercut their rivals in Europe in providing internet access as AOL did not have a business presence in Europe.

Thanks Ciaran, that explains it, plus I just googled the ins and outs. I now have a different question. The OP stated a figure of 20% is this universal to Europe?

No, it's whatever the VAT rate is in your country. I'm in the UK and my rate is 17.5%.

No. In the UK its 17.5, in Germany 19, in France 19.6, in Italy 20 and so on - it differs from country to country. And even within the countries there are different rates for different products, as example in Germany the normal VAT rate is 19 percent, but for basic groceries or books and some other stuff it's only 7.

Thanks Daniel. I wasn't sure how much VAT I was charged as I haven't seen the charge on my CC as yet. I'm in the UK and we have zero VAT on books and children's clothes.

They should have increased everyone's fees to keep it a level playing field. They could have made a lot more money, more people would have complained but how many would have actually left?

Legally I think they'd be in hot water if they tried that and morally I'd find that objectionable and I'm paying VAT so I'm on the end of this big stick.

Different pricing in different countries isn't illegal. I would love to buy a car in the UK for American prices.

Morally SL should be a level playing field at the moment its tilting 17.5-20% uphill against the Europeans. What about if a country, take Canada for example as they have started offering tax breaks and grants for for game development, started subsidising SL businesses?

It does seem harsh but I don't know enough about it to see any way round it.

I'm with you on the car.

Sigh. Death by VAT.

Charging someone a tax that they don't need to pay however is illegal. LL are doing the right thing here by only charging those to whom the tax applies.



We'd have to see how the Canadian example worked, this is a volatile environment here. New challenges are arising all the time.

LL are doing the right thing here by only charging those to whom the tax applies. An across the board rise of 20% would not have been a sensible move.

All they have to do is put a server in Europe. What does it take to run a server? Not much, it is something that can be done by an employee or at the most five employees. Wake up and smell the coffee. Linden's aren't going to do that because they are making money this way.

So you want LL to make up for the inequity imposed by European governments?


That is impossibly lame.

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A Better idea would be for LL to work to a day when Tier was cheaper for all (or more prims for the same land, etc), so at least those in the EU would feel the VAT pinch less.

*shrugs* Everyone's paying taxes. Be it VAT or to the IRS or Social Security, etc, etc, etc.

In every country it's always the same: Born FREE!!! Taxed to death.

While I do feel for our EU Residents, it's not like they are paying that VAT for nothing. It pays for all the things the government gives them. In some EU countries, their health care is free to all. I pay 800 USD a month for health care. I'd GLADLY pay 17.5% on goods and services to have free health care, heh.

So, yes, SL may be "unfair" when only viewed from within the SL world, but when you calculate in the REAL world along with it, the equation changes drastically.

~Jessy

I'm not suggesting they charge the rest of the world VAT, I'm saying they should charge the same worldwide and increase prices by say 8% to cover absorbing the VAT costs. Although you then run into the issue of businesses that are VAT registered.

Don't forget the US could have quite easily been paying "internet tax" now, in which case Europeans may have had the advantage.

I'm really just playing devil's advocate. I can see taxes and local laws are going to be even more of a problem in the future.

Fortunately we don't. But if we did, I wouldn't expect other residents to bear that burden. I'd rather VAT affected businesses raise prices, I'd rather pay them more. That's how the economy works.

Can I have her stuff?

As a EU resident I'm one of those that suddenly have to pay VAT. As many stated, we can't blame LL for that, but the fact is that we have to pay more for the same service then others do...

I own land and rent houses at prices, based on an equal share of the tier. After I announced a 20% raise on the rent and explaining this "VAT"-thing, most of my tenants left to other places. Who can blame them? You will not hear me cry, but I (and many others) have come into a situation that this rental business has become a pointless exercise, because I can't compete with the ones who pay less tier.

I take my loss and sell the land. That hurts, for me and for my tenants, who I considder to be my friends... We can blame anyone, and probably some will put the blame on me... Whatever, it feels unfair and that causes frustrations by many, who originally thought of SL as a fun game with all it's great opportunities... The fun will come back, with a basic free account and no worries anymore.

I agree, everyone, somewhere will be taxed on something. However free health care in the UK is a misconception. My OH alone, is taxed more the equivalent of 800USD a month in national insurance tax which goes towards paying for that free health care people keep banging on about. Every employed person in the UK pays national insurance at some rate or another. VAT has absolutely nothing to do with the 'free' health service we appear to have.

Why are people STILL whining to LL about something that is instituted and enforced by the European Union?

Here in Canada, they Instituted a Goods and Services Tax Many years ago, people didn't b*tch to the Army & Navy because they Now had to Pay an additional 7% on their work clothing, When the government instituted a 15% levy on Recording Media People didn't Blame Radio Shack. IF a Government institutes, and enforces a Tax and you disagree with it the Protests are most properly aimed at the Government, NOT the People who are forced to collect.

LL is as much a Victim of the VAT tax as any of it's clients. It's something they have NO CHOICE but to Collect, and render to the EU taxation authorities. LL is losing Clients, and revenues because Many Europeans Cannot absorb a twenty Percent increase in their fees to Play and are forced to either reduce their expenditures on SL, or cut them out entirely.

If you are living under the Jurisdiction of the EU, then complain to the EU Taxation authority. Organize Petitions and protests, but Don't expect Corporations (Domestic or Foreign) to absorb the costs of the tax for you. it isn't going to happen.

Angel.

really simple -

People should have to pay their own taxes.

It's all Hitler's fault. In a letter right before his suicide, he said to the EU nations, "VAT is really cool. You should check it out sometime." Good old Adolf!

I'm going to take Har's pony for a walk.