Interpersonal caution...

Funny and disturbing indeed. It's good.

What about If God..............http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=jU_iZfe5Xa4&feature=related

has anyone seen this with second life topics in it?

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=XZmCiv77thE

its ends with the first vedio someone posted earlier.....

/me picks up phone cancels interwebs then unplugs computer and tosses it out window....then goes to read a book.....

Good Night Maggie

Good Night Flappy-Sue.

I love the dedicated intricate role-players of SL living out their fantasies, it is just that some people want to faultlessly role-play a perfectly reasonable, normal person - they are the ones to watch out for ! Be afraid, very afraid !

I'd say just be as circumspect as you would normally be on the internet - most SLers are just ordinary people - bit more IT literate than average as a group possibly - but people are people.

(Yeah I like Depeche Mode - gives away my age!)

Depeche Mode? If I said "Wonnerful... wonnerful...!!", would anyone recognize the quote? Not that I listened...

It never ceases to amaze me that no matter how often ppl are advised, 'dont disclose' ... many still continue to give out detailed personal information.
Apparently adult and sensible people hand out personal photos and RL details about themselves to people who they dont really know any better than the dirty old man in the mac who hangs round the local public toilets.
Why do some have the compulsion to do this, even tho any semi-savvy 10 year old would advise against it.

Then they start threads like...'my privacy has been invaded'

Hi Swan,

I roughly agree with what you're saying but there is no way that the demographics present in SL even generally match your ideals.

Middle Class to Upper Middle Class... I'm not sure what those "classes" equate to these days. To be honest I've never really thought that the stereotypes associated with these classifications are much use. But if we're going to start throwing these classifications around let's actually be clear about what we're saying.

The main Social Grade Definitions (in the UK at any rate) are as follows

A - Upper Middle Class - higher managerial, administrative, professional
B - Middle Class - Intermediate managerial, administrative, professional
C1 - Lower Middle Class - Supervisory, Clerical, junior mangerial
C2 - Skilled Working Class - skilled manual workers
D - Working Class - Semi and Unskilled Manual Workers
E - AT or below subsistance - state pensioners, unemployed, casual workers.

So your perception is that SL is populated for the most part by Grades A and B?

I'd say any marketer worth his salt would say.. Nope!

For one thing (and as I say we're working with generalisations and stereotypes here)... A's and B's are too busy getting to be A's and B's and staying there, to have the time or inclination to spend hours doing something similar in SL.

Also for the most part, they already have the sort of RL lifestyle that a lot of SL citizens are seeking to create virtually in SL.

SO unless we're talking people who are financially independant, or non-bread winners in A and B (i.e. the terminally bored with time on their hands) what we're really looking at is (Stereotypically and in my opinion only), a majority of disenfranchised C1, C2 and Ds.

On the whole though, I do agree with you. There is a wide variety of people in SL who have a wide variety of reasons for being there. I just think you did your argument a disservice by trying to pull "class" into it.

Hi Swan and Steph

/me coughs and goes out of character...

I own a marketing company in real life togheter with my husband. I know a fair bit about demographics, especially from a marketing point of view.

The term middle class is missused by MOST people who use it , as everybody would love to see himself in such "middle". Middle Class in reality is somewhat different.

These people are either in leading positions in economy and politics or own a business which (official definition of middle size company) has at least 10 full time employees and turns over in excess of 2.000.000 USD p.a.

Typically they have at least college education, if not academic . They are financially independent and usually have a quite sophisticated livestyle. Logically the age range is 30+

We did actually studies some time ago as we (as a company) where planning to do business in SL.

As a result I can assure you the percentage of middle class people of the SL residents is very small. To brand or market products in SL, which are targeted to middle class is a total waste of money.

Reality in SL is more like this: Students, lower class workers and employees, unemployed, more men then woman, biggest age group is 25 to 35, nationalities USA, German, UK, Japan, low to average incomes (90 % below 100.000 USD per year).

Regards

/me coughs again and goes back in character

Maggie

Hi Maggie,

Thanks for that.

As I say I don't really like allocating "class" to anyone because it's often used pejoratively anyway.

Demographic analysis is useful though to a degree when identifying markets and strategies and it sounds like you did a thorough job there..

I'm a business owner in RL too and came to SL to have a look around. In the end, like you, we identified the fact that there wasn't a market for us in SL for now.

We didn't do our own analysis, we actually paid for some.. I'm glad it wasn't squandered because it came up with almost identical stats to yours.

Anyway.. it doesn't really affect how I enjoy SL or what I do from a personal point of view.

Thanks again, your post was very interesting ..

Oh wow - this looks really authoratative, and.... the definitions are all commonly used, i.e.

A is "higher managerial, administrative, professional"

but, where on earth does it say that "A" is "upper middle class" - or that any of these "grades" are linked to social "class"?

A through to D are ALL working class, and E as well. A/B are professional working class.

Most SL residents are disenfranchised C1s, C2s and Ds......? LOL !

I think you might be surprised just how many As and Bs there are in SL. They tend to be people that have degrees, know how to manage their time and actually have plenty of it (if they are under 40 and have no family to look after).

To have an active SL presence you need the following, irrespective of social class or grade:

- free time
- spare cash
- a good PC with a very graphics card
- a good internet connection

Class and social grade definition are completely irrelevant. IT literacy might help if you intend to have a "developing" presence in SL, but even that is not needed initially - I know quite a few "E" grades that have used SL to learn these skills and are currently in the top five per cent of earners in SL. These people started with no real spare cash but had bucket loads of time.

Hi Snowman,

To be honest I don't have any axe to grind on this, I'm an SL resident after all..

I answered a post which allocated (inaccurately in my opinion) a certain set of demographics to the average SLer.

To be honest, I'm not sure that I would be "surprised" since my opinion has apparently also been borne out by Maggie above.

As I say, it's only of any use if you're planning on starting a business in SL or bringing RL business activities into SL.. in which case most prudent business people would say that it's anything but irrelevant.

As for me I couldn't care less as a happy SL individual wandering around. It was just an interesting aspect of the discussion and one I had some info on..

Snowman

You got your definitions wrong

Your A and B is NOT middle class!

Also you say an SL player needs time and cash? Yes sure but how much? Its peanuts. A PC, a decent graphic card, an ADSL line and 5 bucks for a premium account? Somebody on unemployment money can afford that so can most students...and they have time on their hand!!

Believe me we did our homework

Regards

Maggie

In last post I got mixed up with who said what.

Sorry

Maggie

Maggie - yup - I agree with you - I don't think I said A/B were middle class - I was disputing it....

Oh dear, an argument about definitions.

I simply set out a commonly used demographic hierarchy as used in the UK. There are loads and loads and each can be used differently depending on what you're doing.

There are lots of dimensions, not just income and perceived "class", but education, job role .. I woudn't be surprised if hair colour isn't used by some marketing consultancies to help target a niche...

the terminology of "class" isn't even used by the more rigorous agencies these days because it does take away from the objective analysis and at least here in the UK still has associated subjective value judgements associated with it.

I simply found part of a post interesting in that it allocated your average SL citizen to Upper/middle class.. and I had found that to be inaccurate based on info I had from a few months ago.

As I say.. to each his own. Regardless of any other judgement I do actually agree with Snowman to the extent that I work for my money so if allocated to a "class".. I'm definitely working..

i appreciate your feedback and that you gave my post some careful thought. But, i do believe that i said i was making generalizations. Moreover, i would include everyone in your above list except for homeless who usually do not have stable access to the internet, which was infact my only reason for including that statement. Its common sense to determine that most users would be fairly educated with some stability in real life by nature of them having access to Second Life in the first place. There are obvious exceptions. But, its true enough to validate my opinion. Neither do i think race or culture are important factors. My point simply being that there is no "Us" and "Them" and i dont believe people are as disenfranchised as you seem to think.

Stephen - thanks! I agree with you totally, I should not have got drawn into debating "working class" - LOL - it is precisely those value judgements inherent to such a debate that causes confusion.

I guess all I was trying to say is that SL is populated by A through to E, and that the "disenfranchisement" was inappropriate.

Hi Swan,

No worries, I just thought your post was interesting and a specific part raised a few questions in my head, and I had some info I thought I'd share...

Although I really wish I hadn't used the word "disenfranchised". It wasn't meant in any pejorative sense really.

I'll think of a better word next time..

You're very right. What I don't understand...is how anyone enters into a virtual world without realizing the staggering potential for deceipt. Nothing is real here folks.......including many of the people you meet. Oh yeah....they sit at their PC's and type, but that's about where it ends. Anything else they tell you is subject to intense scrutiny and let's face it.....how ya gonna find out, really?

I posted something similar to the person with the "Why Does This Happen" thread..... genuine friends happen naturally and over time....it cannot be forced, coerced, or otherwise manipulated into being. I don't even bother with people who are too secretive....cause obviously I'm never gonna get to know them well enough in a cyber world anyway....why invest the energy. And I don't necessarily 'believe' everything people tell me..... I just take it all with a grain of salt... big grain.

And...here's another bit of consistant truth about the web and meeting people..... anyone I've ever met via the web who has become a true friend (and I have) was completely open and honest about who they were right from the get go. No big secrets..... no lies about their own character...no drama..... just cool people who turned out to be treasured RL friends. That isn't to say we shared everything about one another right away.... trust was established...but what I mean is 'consistant integrity'. People who have nothing to hide, have nothng to hide. And people who want to deceive, are in mecca if they discover SL.

ahem. college educated persons, business owners and professionals with high incomes can all be fruit loops too. instability is not just reserved for those not on same list.

re: Milla's post above - i have a group of online pals who i've been associating with for over 10 years now, and finally just one year ago i allowed it to be more than the internet with one woman (meaning, we exchanged cards and books and such via snail mail ~i have a PO Box, so thankfully it wasn't totally full disclosure). of course, it was only then that her true self came out, she turned on me and ended up being a lying manipulator. lesson learned. won't ever happen again, i assure you.

i still remain in contact with the remainder of the group, duly ignoring her all the while.

Wait a minute

Isn't the whole purpose of SL to simulate something? Isn't that why its called a SIM (simulater).

That is not deceipt - its the nature of the beast: roleplay. Some simulate more, some simulate less.

The button line is, as you said: "Nothing is for real here folks!"

Regards

Maggie ??