Landlord Fraud?

It dealt with counterfeiting a well-known brand. It is the near-equivalent of filing a DMCA and LL not doing anything about it. Which is, by the way, the recourse for the type of ripoffs that usually occur in SL other than nondelivery or ejection from an estate.

And eBay was successfully sued.........that says rather clearly who's responsiblity it is on such matters. It's their platform, they own it, they have the obligation to take care of it and protect the users of it from crimes against those who do use it in good faith.

It was successfully sued by a company due to a trademark issue. It is not the same as "this person kicked me off my virtual land." It is not a dispute between users, but a company protecting its intellectual property. Apples and oranges.

Was eBay selling the protected trademarked merchandise? Or was it one of the users of eBay?

It's not apples and oranges. It's more like MacIntosh and Delicious.

This is a problem that happens all the time in SL with private estate, and it is very unfortunate. Not only for the person that gets scammed out of there land, tier, and time they spent building there dream home in SL, but it also gives the rest of the legit estate owners that have been doing this for sometime a bad name. Since everyone seems to group people together, now everyone that has estate land is a bad person. Well I have been doing this for over 2 years now, this is my RL job. Our number reason for starting in the land business was not to get rich, but to create communities, where people could meet others from all over the world. 80% of my residents have been with me since they started in SL over 1 year or more ago. I hate when I here that anyone gets scammed or taken advantage of.

MysteryDan Rubble contact me in game, let me know what size and prims you had. I'm sure I can find you something on my estate that is close to what you had. I will not charge you for the land or tier for the first month, to make up for this idiot that took your money and land. I'm sure we can turn this nightmare into a dream again.

It was a user, but the complaint was not from one user to another. This is akin to a DMCA action, for which LL could be sued if it failed to protect the IP rights of another upon presentation of a takedown notice. Apples and Oranges.

My point is that ebay has consistently claimed non-responsibility for these issues claiming they are just a venue. It is not the same as a DMCA takedown because it involves tangible goods and RL money, as well as intellectual property rights. Ebay has now been told by the french courts that their "just a venue" stance will not legally protect them. It does set a precedent of an online company being held legally responsible for the conduct of its users.

EBay was sued for someone's misdeed...........that is the point. Ll can, potentially, be sued for someone elses misdeeds in SL. That is what I'm getting at. Not intellectual property rights. Someone "harms" another using a platform that does not protect the person harmed can be sued. Yes, it is apples and oranges if you are talking about DCMA takedowns and everyone else is talking about someone screwing a person out of "property" or money. Both are against the law. One has a DCMA law to fall back on, one does not. Sooner or later someone will test just how much LL is responsible.......and I believe it will be found that they are responsible enough to get sued over and they very likely will loose in a court of law.

It is a complaint about eBay France not policing its site enough for counterfeit goods. Period. It is not individual users complaining, but companies seeking to protect their IP. It is almost exactly analogous to a DMCA. It would be the same as Naughty/TheAbyss/Armidi suing LL for not policing stores for knockoff goods.

But as I said earlier, it is a company being held responsible for the conduct of its users. No matter how you slice it, ebay is being held responsible for something a user did on the website.

Well of course, because eBay wasn't the counterfeiter itself. But eBay has an obligation against that particular type of activity. That isn't necessarily carte blanche to sue eBay for every person's fraud. Plus, it seems that another factor is that eBay also gets a slice of every transaction, whereas that isn't a requirement here. It's far from settled.

Ever notice that many times the victims of Estate fraud or Island sales come here for the first time after they've been robbed? We few forum regulars are all well aware of landbots and shady Estate owners. The majority of SL residents are not. Hell, a good percentage of people renting on estates actually think they own the land they are living on. And why not? They found the land in a search window called "land sales".

Bottom line: LL doesn't do anything when a person gets ripped off. And they also don't do anything to educate them in the first place. It's all on the resident's shoulders to figure out the difference between Mainland and Estates and the risks and pitfalls of SL real estate.

Which is fine except every time another player gets ripped off, you have another player who once was contributing to SL's ever-dwindling economy who is now thinking twice about plunking down more lindens.

LL can do things to make it easier, but there is no way to force feed all this information to people easily. People get bored on OI when learning how to fly, what makes you think they're going to stomach the nuances of buying land?

They won't stomach those nuances at all..........but that does not make them fair game for the dishonest. LL cannot force feed them I know...........but they should have some form of protection. Or, at the very least, some avenue to take to get "justice". Even if it's only the satisfaction of knowing the culprit got into trouble.

Right now, there is nothing...............just a "tough sh*t" attitude.

I agree, but can we at least separate estate listings from mainland and call them what they are: Estate Rentals.

Agreed.

Maybe because the fast majorety of Estate owners treath the tennants of the islands as land owners and wont take the land in a whim even if they have the right and abilety.
When a landowner on one of my islands lets the tier run out I contact them repeatedly to see if there are problems that keeps them from being able to pay and work something out, taking back the land is a last resort I rather not do, I want my tennants to be happy not make a lot of money off their backs.
I don't mind someone calling Estate land lease but please stop lumping all Estate owners together, there is even a fast difference between the good reputable Estate owners, I would not dream of comparing my sims to those of desmont, I simply don't have the resources to create a mini continent, instead I work with my tennants to make the single sims a place they feel as theirs where they create the comunety, things like that take a lot of work and don't wieght up to the financial return but having happy tennants is a reward on its own and something I'm willing to take the financial risk for.

This pretty much sums up everything that is right and wonderful with Second Life.

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I've personally known Alliez since before SL, before land barony, or any of that stuff even existed.

She's good people, and when people lump all land barons together as evil, I think of her - nothing could be further from evil than Alliez. She really *would* try to solve the entire grid's problems singlehandedly, as evidenced above.

Right, but I try to do the same thing for my few Mainland tenants. I still have to call them "rentals" though. (And I don't get to list any vacancies in the handy Land Sales search.)

I know, it's all pretend land we're pretending to rent or sell. But on the Mainland, if I sell my pretend land, I don't get to do it over again later, nor tell the buyer what they can and can't do with the land I sold them--which somehow seems more like a "sale" to me.

But really, it's not a question of sterile semantics, but rather one of practical utility: Does it help or hurt Estate owners and their customers to use the word "sales" for that temporary partial transfer of control? I can see that, in the case of reputable Estate owners, it conveys the desired message, but on balance--considering also the Estate short-change artists for which the term is just deceptive advertising--does the term help or hurt the Estate land business model?

Personally, I think Estate "Sales" and (especially) "Covenants" are failed experiments in nomenclature. But then, I'm still a Mainland geek. Then again, that's probably _why_ I'm still a Mainland geek.

LL should just call it rental like it is. It would sure save me a lot of time as well that I spend explaining to people who come to my sims to rent and think that they are buying.

i have always really hated this concept. the only person with "land rights" on a private sim is the private sim owner.

anyone "buying" land this way is only "buying" the right to rent the land from the sim owner. period.

so always look at this initial "purchase price" as money you will never get back. if you DO get it back, treat it as a bonus.

As bad as I hate to hear about these scams happening to people out here, it never fails to help me keep things in perspective. When and if I ever decide to "buy" land, it won't be from an individual on a private island. I will take the plunge and purchase mainland instead....of if I win the lottery, I'll buy my own island.
I rather enjoy being a renter ackshuly.

QFT.. from someone who makes their home on estate land, and paid some real money for the down payment. Even though I fully researched the sim owner, and am convinced he will do his best not to cheat his tenants, I paid the down payment and pay my tier in the full realization that I'm paying for my entertainment. I don't pay tier too far ahead, and the initial price is gone in my books... But I love the parcel I chose after weeks of looking, and to me, it's worth the price.

I wish people were better educated and more savvy about the risks of Estate land, but I'm glad it's available to those of us who are willing and able to pay for it, regardless of the risk.

Yet Linden Lab can do this, abandoned land has been resold. Essentially estate land that isn't having tier paid on it is abandoned land, estate owners are just quicker to do something about the situation than Linden Lab are.

The problem with the terminology comes not from estate owners, but Linden Lab's teminology. None of the land here is owned by anyone other than Linden Lab. They could reclaim my mainland and estate land right now if they so chose, that's highly unlikely to happen, which is why Linden Lab are the most trustworthy landlord here.

Estate owners are all the same in one factor.. they are all Human.

And Humans have a nasty habit of dropping dead... what happens to the vast 100 sim estates if the owner gets smoked by a Pepsi Truck walking across the street one day?

I dont think there are any inheritance rules at LL, land wont go to next of Kin... so it all poofs right?

No matter how wonderful the Estate owner is his or her whole pile of Sims *are* going to be returned to LL one day... and that day could be tomorrow.