Landlord Fraud?

I guess im small time..with my one sim and sky &beach resort...ive rented homes for 15 months...and never once made anyone homeless or been involved in a scam for cash type thing...dont tar all of us with the same brush please? Just because we dont all own multiple sims & land...doesnt make us any better or worse. I see your point about earning potential and i agree, and thats where many many small land owners and especially new land owners will come adrift imho. However, as small as iam...i make sure i keep on top of the seasonal slumps etc...by other means such as sales from my store...it CAN be done with only a small holding of land Some of us diversify...and dont rely on JUST rentals & land tiers to pay the bills!

I'm in the same boat as you but I think Desmond's point was that larger landlords should in theory offer better security, which is a point I don't disagree with, although even they have their moments and certainly people have complained about big landlords.

I'm happy with my repeat renters and people who come back to me after trying somewhere else.

Desmond,

I think it's pretty obvious that a small time operator also has much smaller-time grief, drama and time commitment. In fact I would suggest that it's pretty nearly proportional to the amount of land holdings. If somebody like me with 5 regions is putting in Desmond-Shang-like time and effort for 50 regions, then those must be the peskiest damn 5 regions on the grid.

If I weren't "playing" SL I'd be spending that time watching TV or playing video games, except those things don't pay me a couple hundred bucks a month.

In fact, I'm going to turn it around on you. It's the bigtime operators, DEPENDENT on the money, who are more likely to freak out, have a nervous breakdown, and quit on you.

I'm sorry, I know it must look like like I'm picking on you this week, but for some reason, this week you seem determined to try to prove that non-Caledon-like business models are all junk. I hope you realize that I have the utmost respect for you, and what you've created, and that this is all just academic discussion.

--Avion

ditto but i dont hold with the *only rent from a landlord with a bazillion acres of land* theory, no one can foresee the future or possibly know whats going to happen...no one is more secure than anyone else in this place...however, i DO believe it might make a little more sense to ask about your potential landlord and how long theyve been renting land/homes to get an idea of their knowledge, but you just cant say only rent with me because i own LOADS of land therefore im secure...doesnt gel with me.

Hallo Mistery, did u tried to open a ticket/abuse report to LL? You won't solve anything, but may u report it back here, so we can read with our eyes the official LL reply? So we all know.
Thank you!

What I read from what Desmond was saying is not that the person is trustworthy not because they own a lot of land, but because they are established with a good reputation.

and someone with a little less land isnt trustworthy? or just as established? you dont need to own a bazillion acres to prove that...surely? my smaller set up is JUST as important to me and i put a lot of effort into making it right and being honest and worthy as someone with LOADS of land ...is there a point scoring system im not aware of on who can be trusted and who cant based on how many sqm you have?

I am surprised no one has mentioned that LL COULD prevent this stuff, simply by creating a technical system/process, where land transfers cannot happen without paying off any residents (whether a Linden$ transaction or not).

They own the whole thing, it's their responsibility to fix it.

How? Since none knows who is actually paying for the parcels (and how much), so how you determine the (eventual) giving back amount?
The only way to prevent the estates fraus/scam is to develop the system to regulamentate it... but it will never happens for obvious reasons (mainland).

Bingo! Rebecca wins the thread.

OK.... there needs to be some sort of mechanism in place if the buyer is taking on the existing rentals and tenants. But, yes, an excellent point and one that should be fairly easy to implement.

Oh, no worries at all, I see nothing personal in it and don't mind the discussion!

In fact I prefer to discuss with people openly, without the need for too much sugar due to oversensitivity on anyone's part. I wouldn't think any less of you for a second, just because you would disagree with me.

To be clear, though: I *do* see small scale land barony to be a junky business model.

It's a hobby.

I get someone asking me to bail out their couple-three regions in trouble all the time, or asking me for advice how to do it. At least once a week.

It's constant, and every single time, in every case, they are pouring tons of time into it. I've been seeing this in good times, bad times, you name it.

The successful ones pour in tons of time as well - usually more. Just to be available, you have to be online and on call a lot. Add up the time - no, really, add it all up, all the time it took to get to where you are.

Nobody just fell into a good situation spending four hours a week at it, making money all the way. Instead, they all burned dozens and dozens of hours both online and off, in some cases spending thousands that they sort of put on the 'play' column in their minds, sort of ignoring it or mentally writing it off.

Small scale land barony just plain isn't worth the money. It's a hobby. A part time fast food job, or selling tickets at the movies would outpace it in a week.

* * * * *

As for myself or other more substantial operators - say Anshe, Alliez, Adam, Dana... I don't see any of them 'freaking out' or having a nervous breakdown any time soon.

In my case, I could run with half a dozen regions utterly empty and still pay for my time - I'd still be solvent with ten utterly emptied. Everyone else I just mentioned can do far more than that.

As for 'nervous breakdowns' - I'm not the type and neither are they. Sure, the sky could fall, but when it does I think a lot of small operators are going to be obliterated first.

* * * * *

Faithless, you quite missed my point.

A small hobby operator often is quite trustworthy, capable, wonderful, stable, all those good things.

The point was: if they are small *and* doing it for the money, there are going to be big problems.

People regularly start up regions without any clue of what it takes to manage them, and only then realise how dismal the returns are compared to the hours. Once it stops being fun, they flee.

Thus leading to all the horror stories we hear - these things are sadly not uncommon.

* * * * *

As for the original post - do report it. What many don't realise is that the Company *does* sometimes respond when it chooses to.

I've personally seen cases of fraud (where a friend was harmed) that they have pursued, both on the mainland and also in the case of a private estate sale. It's not every time but if it's deeply serious, yes they sometimes get their hands dirty.

Document everything, make it very clear, report all of it with chatlogs, names, times, regions, and send it in.

Desmond your assumptions about small scale operations are very wrong...i personally know quite a few, like myself that a) do make ends meet with money left over b) arent doing it just for a hobby...its all about how you do it, where you do it...and if you can diversify so all your eggs arent in ONE land basket , i have ridden out a few storms, seasonal slumps i dont mind admitting that, im no new rental landlord on the block (but hey to everyone who is- nice to meet you- good luck!) but ive weathered them and always been ok...actually thats wrong, not ok...pretty damm good !


I also know of a few LARGE SCALE landlords that have folded...obviously they *didnt come running to me* to bail them out cause im just a small fish in a big big ocean..please dont assume you know everything about everyones business...because youre a larger operator it gives you no special powers at all.

Im glad youre so open to discussion, me too !

It would be up to a seller to make sure they have complied with paying off residents. As it is, then yes you are right, no one (nor the software) knows. That is why new technical steps need to be added.

Big or small, I personally would never rent from or recommend someone who was publicly rude to another resident. Just part of my personal criteria.

Your opinion, you're entitled to it, frankly I disagree. Eggs and baskets and all that. As part of an evolving business and from a point of view of networking, small time land owners can do very well thank you very much and don't all run at the first sign of a wobble.

People get to a stage where they've been doing it for what, 12 months or more, why are they likely to flee? A bigger landlord can make more money by fleeing, the small time land owner has to ask themselves if it's worth throwing everything down the pan for what, a couple of hundred US dollars? The temptation to flee and keep the family silver is a lot less for the small time player.

You're very successful Desmond and fair play to you, but that doesn't mean your way is the only way.

I've said this before, many disagree with me but buyers of islands should be actively encouraged to do their homework on what they're buying. The seller of course holds all the aces and can be deceitful, but the buyer should try to find out as much information as they can before purchasing.

Maybe LL could put something into the ticket transfer process to try and encourage buyers and sellers to share more information.

Well, as one who *does* do it strictly as a hobby, and on a tiny Mainland scale, really, nobody should trust me unless they know somebody who knows somebody who's rented from me before. And sure, I could get bored with this hobby someday and just make off with the few L$s my tenants have paid in advance, but I kinda doubt someone like me would tire of it any sooner than would a real land baron: it barely affects my in-world experience because the tenants are mostly self-sufficient and if some land goes vacant for a while I just don't care, whereas somebody doing all this seriously would give over a lot of their time to it and have to manage it as a business, etc.

Do people abandon hobbies after a couple years more often than they change jobs? I really don't know. Maybe.

None of that gets to the folks "in the middle" who are doing it for more than a hobby, but not on a really big scale. I guess I can see this being a treacherous path at the *start*, where the landlord is just kind of testing the waters. But if they've been at it for a while, they sorta have as much to lose by quitting as either the hobbyist or the tycoon. (Okay, not exactly: the successful tycoon has this steady profit to which they may have grown accustomed--but that's the *successful* tycoon; who knows how many of the big players are working their little bejeweled fingers to the bone, for peanuts? How long will that remain amusing?)

All of which is to say that reputation is really the only thing any outsider can trust at all. And those entering the business would do well to minimize the amount of trust required of their tenants.

I'm in the process of closing my estate, and I gave all my renters not one but *two* months notice as to what I was doing. The fact that someone would sell a sim out from under his renters is frankly ridiculous. There are a lot of good landlords in SL, and I agree that all it takes a dumb few to make everyone look bad. It's really sad.

Desmond,

This makes use of two assumptions that for many people (me for one) are false. 1) That every bit of time I spend in life has to be used making money, or else it's not worth doing, and 2) That the small scale land baron has to spend just as much time as the big guy in order to be effective.

I'll start with point 2. I simply think that you're wrong that the baby baron has to spend as much time as you do. I've never to my knowledge lost a tenant because they were disappointed that I couldn't provide a 24 hr concierge service, and I've never met with any disaster that couldn't wait until I woke up in the morning, or got home from work.

As for the 1st point, is it not possible for a person to greatly enjoy spending lots of time in SL and turn a profit at it too? ONE of the reasons I do this is to meet the personal challenge of making money, and I do. The huge difference that you are ignoring is that I have a large desire to spend lots and lots of time in SL anyway because I love doing it, even if I don't make any money. However, I have no desire whatsoever to work fast food or sell movie tickets at any salary. So why not spend my time in SL, make my fast-food-level salary at it, and love it, and do that for years?

I am speculating that I cannot possibly be alone in this.

I have no doubt that there are bad business models out there because we hear about them all the time. But it is absolutely not true that the model is junky just because it is small.

--Avion

sorry raymond...but my dander is truly up....i loathe people making sweeping statements about others business...and i was not *intending* to be rude to the PERSON,more about the *comments*...which is what this is all about...what people have written or expressed...

theres absolutely nothing wrong with doing it as a hobby...i enjoy home rentals...wouldnt do it if i didnt. love meeting new people, helping, watching the comings and goings...

I agree that anyone who invests time & cash has just as much to lose as the next person...its irrelevant just how much they put in really. i appluad anyone who keeps going big OR small...theres enough pie for all of us, i look around on a regular basis and am always amazed by the diversity of whats on offer. No one could ever say that home & land rentals has become stale for sure!

I am with Avion. Small time barony (God, am I a baroness? eesh) isn't necessarily about making the money, but can be about other things. For me, it is the challenge in and of itself of running a successful business. Being good at it is personally rewarding. It's paying for itself now and I'm thinking of expanding again. Can't be all that bad.

I would agree that those who are making a rl living off of it have no incentive to quit. They have the resources to pay more staff that will help them out.

And for the record, I think Fai's objection to this sort of talk is fair. She was not personally rude to him. Des enjoys a great reputation and his personal investment shows in everything he does. But we can't paint every small baron as some unstable flake that will run at the drop of a hat, or one who will be unethical enough to not refund people's money.

If the dollar amount of the rent is enough to matter to you, then do what you do in real life: Get a written lease in writing. I've bought real life real estate on the basis of a faxed contract which I signed and then faxed back. And if the landlord is not willing to provide you with real life contact information that you can check, maybe you should think twice about renting from him.

On another topic that came up, SL aready has a built in function for short term access to a parcel for a fee. If they made it settable for longer periods, and added a button for "grant temporary land privileges with fee *and* those privileges survive a change in estate/island owner, it would solve a lot of problems.

What about the entry price? If you ever asked em...

Sigh. Let's take this one point at a time.



The assumptions are your own. I did not write that.

1) Is irrelevant.


2) No, not at all.

What I am saying is: the minimum time + money required is enough to set up anyone 'doing it for the money' for disaster.

As a hobby, it's great, like I said. In terms of 'doing it for the money' - if just about anybody adds up their SL hours: (startup, sustaining) and bills it out, it's ridiculously not worth it.

I have never met anyone on the grid, and I am talking hundreds of people who have launched regions and discussed it with me - who just tossed a region up, had ten people magically appear to rent and had almost no problems.


3) (A point you have not touched on, and none seem to get!) - doing it on a hobby basis is generally sustainable but not a business model.

It's just a hobby. Effort poured in, but could run a few bucks positive or negative, not a big deal.

Talk to your CPA about this one, or the US internal revenue service for those in the United States.

Point of fact, the US IRS will actually *take away* the 'business' status of a supposed small company if things don't go too well, force-declare it a hobby, and thus eliminate expense deductions from the so-called business.

Of course everyone desires business status, but it's not the reality of the situation for a lot of micro-businesses.



Example:

Real lemonade stand with employees, sales in the 10's of thousands of dollars:

a) doing it as a passionate hobby: good, sustainable

b) doing it for the money: good, sustainable


Neighbourhood lemonade stand making a few dollars a day, 5c a glass:

c) doing it as a passionate hobby: good, sustainable

d) doing it for the money: utterly not worth your time, not likely to stay in business.


This is about as simple as it gets.

All of you in category (c) are upset in thinking I'm putting you in category (d). I am not. You can be in (c) and make or lose a few bucks, and it won't matter much.

In (d) it's typically the end of the road, hence many of the disasters we hear about in these forums.