For the OP:
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Casino's and Gambling... |
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Uvas Umarov
Phone Weasel Advocate
Join date: 8 Feb 2007
Posts: 622
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11-12-2007 18:56
_____________________
"On the other hand, if you are convinced that I spent all the money on a new sports car, then getting even 2.5% instead of 0% back would be quite a deal, wouldn't it?" ---ginko bank owner on his financial dealings
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Maggie McArdle
FIOS hates puppies
Join date: 8 May 2006
Posts: 2,855
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11-12-2007 19:00
You're right! It's not in the TOS! My God, I can't believe it. That means all this time that they've had no right to tell us we can't gamble. I can't believe how silly we've all been. Break out the slots! Chri5 first..... _____________________
There's, uh, probably a lot of things you didn't know about lindens. Another, another interesting, uh, lindenism, uh, there are only three jobs available to a linden. The first is making shoes at night while, you know, while the old cobbler sleeps.You can bake cookies in a tree. But the third job, some call it, uh, "the show" or "the big dance," it's the profession that every linden aspires to.
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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11-12-2007 19:02
knowing the law isnt very necessary on the sites i visit though. afterall, im just visiting the site. im not creating it.
remember that gambling was not forbidden by ll when these gambling businesses were started up, even though they may have technically been illegal... not asking for my hand to be held, but if ll feel as strongly about inworld gambling as i believe, they shouldnt expect me to know that this sort of thing is illegal. afterall, my first job was as a legal telephone bookmaker taking bets on horseraces and sporting events. i even took bets on the oj simpson trial  why would i think the same people that built las vegas would outlaw online gambling?if it is banned, say so. You are required to know and abide by the law on every website you visit. Not like Linden Lab is going to post every law that applies to SL. The OP is/was a business owner. The first thing you do when you start a business is learn the laws that apply to it or hire legal council to enlighten you. Why people these days seem to think their hand is supposed to held all the time is beyond me. It is your responsibility to make sure you are in the right, not some else's. _____________________
SLU - ban em then bash em!
~~GREATEST HITS~~ pro-life? gtfo! slu- banning opposing opinions one at a time http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/zomgwtfbbqgtfololcats/15428-disingenuous.html learn to shut up and nod in agreement... or be banned! http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/off-topic/1239-americans-not-stupid.html |
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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11-12-2007 19:09
people keep stating the obvious fact that we are expected to conform to us law. i dont see anyone debating this, so why does it keep being brought up? the point i am making is that it is unreasonable to expect everyone to know what these laws are, and it is a stupid decision to not include MAJOR yet inobvious ones in the tos. gambling is not a universal taboo that everyone should be expected to expect. its not the same thing as speeding past stopsigns on holiday, get real. rl analogies are pointless here. there is a huge difference between logging inot a web app and holidaying in a foreign land. there are no parking signs in sl, ppl are just expected to 'know'. if you parked your car irl and got a ticket and there was no sign at all i doubt you would be so understanding about it. especially if you were told that signs werent needed as you had a 15000 page catalogue of penal law to refer to.
your expected to know what you can and can't do on the back of most fines and tickets and at the bottom of every little bit of legal paper where it says someone has done something wrong in my country anyhow its says "ignorance is not an excuse under the law" I know i got a parking ticket once and when i read that back that's what it said and yes I didn't see the sign but it didnt' make me any less guilty. I was in a rush I was late i was driving in circles looking for a spot and suddenly there was one and I grabbed it and got out of the car and ran to my appointment. I came back to find my 55 dollar ticket on my car window. I went and paid the ticket and didn't part in that spot anymore and i bet the got a lot of people with that spot it was a convenient little empty hole there  It gets even more complicated then that. When you go to another country or province or state even your expected to know THEIR laws as well and abide by them and again "ignorance is not an excuse under the law" when you run a business any kind of business one thing that you have to do is find out what is legal and not and follow the rules. More time is often spent finding out what you can and can't do then running the business in the first year and then there are changes in rules which you have to magically become aware of.. Its life and it happens sometimes we goof up and then we pay the price, but willfully defying something like in the case of the gambling stuff where a ton of people point it out and it was published and knowing its wrong is just willful defiance. There is also the flip side of those who think something is illegal when its not trying to tell you the law when its not written like that on the paper. Neither is right. What is right is what the paper says. In this case the paper says "you cant gamble here" so what's the problem? I wouldn't gamble on the net or anywhere anyhow to much room for legal issues. If i do gamble i go to the one and only legal casino for miles around and i put my buck in the slot machine and then go eat at the fancy dining area and watch the imax and go home 1 buck poorer. In any event in this case its not particularly complicated and its well documented gambling and casinos is a no no in SL. Very little debating is needed in fact no debating is needed however for those who want to test to see if the words are true as i said and others have said they are free to try and find out if it holds true and open their casino No one is stopping them from finding out _____________________
SLU - ban em then bash em!
~~GREATEST HITS~~ pro-life? gtfo! slu- banning opposing opinions one at a time http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/zomgwtfbbqgtfololcats/15428-disingenuous.html learn to shut up and nod in agreement... or be banned! http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/off-topic/1239-americans-not-stupid.html |
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Bradley Bracken
Goodbye, Farewell, Amen
Join date: 2 Apr 2007
Posts: 3,856
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11-12-2007 19:09
why would i think the same people that built las vegas would outlaw online gambling? if it is banned, say so. people keep stating the obvious fact that we are expected to conform to us law. The easy answer to that is gambling laws are a state by state thing. It's legal in Nevada not California. And no, it wouldn't help to move the servers to Nevada.  To me it really comes down to a person choosing to have a presence in SL as a hobby where they may make some money, or are they legitimately going to take the time and effort to run a REAL business and ensure they know what they are doing and getting into. Anyone who took their gambling operation seriously would have fully educated themselves. They may have proceeded with making money via gambling while they could get away with it, but it should have come as no surprise to them at all when the bubble finally burst. They would also know not to blame LL. _____________________
My interest in SL has simply died. Thanks for all the laughs
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Uvas Umarov
Phone Weasel Advocate
Join date: 8 Feb 2007
Posts: 622
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11-12-2007 19:10
They said it was banned.
_____________________
"On the other hand, if you are convinced that I spent all the money on a new sports car, then getting even 2.5% instead of 0% back would be quite a deal, wouldn't it?" ---ginko bank owner on his financial dealings
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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11-12-2007 19:12
so new users are expected to not only refer to the tos, knowledge base, and the community standards, but to scrutinise all the past blog postings as well?
They said it was banned. In any event in this case its not particularly complicated and its well documented gambling and casinos is a no no in SL. Very little debating is needed in fact no debating is needed however for those who want to test to see if the words are true as i said and others have said they are free to try and find out if it holds true and open their casino No one is stopping them from finding out _____________________
SLU - ban em then bash em!
~~GREATEST HITS~~ pro-life? gtfo! slu- banning opposing opinions one at a time http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/zomgwtfbbqgtfololcats/15428-disingenuous.html learn to shut up and nod in agreement... or be banned! http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/off-topic/1239-americans-not-stupid.html |
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
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11-12-2007 19:18
A blog post IS the TOS or Community Standards.
From the very first paragraph of the Terms of Service, to which you agreed: "Linden Lab may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion, effective upon posting the amended Agreement at the domain or subdomains of http://secondlife.com where the prior version of this Agreement was posted, or by communicating these changes through any written contact method we have established with you." That being said, the location of where it is specifically said that gambling is illegal has already been quoted several times in this thread. Does anybody have any further use for this expired horse? Chris, you can push this issue to the very edge of the envelope, even rally some folks here in the forum around your cause, but it will change nothing. He's not pinin'. He's passed on. This horse is no more. He has ceased to be! He's expired and gone on to meet his maker! He's a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed him to that perch, he'd be pushing up the daisies! His metabolic processes are now history! He's off the twig! He's kicked the bleedin' choir invisible! This is an EX HORSE! Buut.... a Blog post isn't the TOS nor is it the community standards, so please someone give me the location of where it specifically says gambling is illegal. _____________________
Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them. |
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Nyoko Salome
kittytailmeowmeow
Join date: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378
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11-12-2007 19:18
SAID IT ONCE... say it again??
take it verbotten... paying in without paying out the same is illegal. period. (for now.) fight it elsewhere. it's outside of the linden domain. period. (really, i keep waiting for someone to make this 'legal' in some process... geezzzzz, that much to yah, -make- it legal!!) it's not the linden's fight!!! it's -yours!!!- _____________________
 Nyoko's Bodyoils @ Nyoko's Wears http://slurl.com/secondlife/Centaur/126/251/734/ http://home.comcast.net/~nyoko.salome2/nyokosWears/index.html "i don't spend nearly enough time on the holodeck. i should go there more often and relax." - deanna troi |
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Matteo Harris
Sweet's Loving Hubby
Join date: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 207
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11-12-2007 19:19
Why is this even a discussion, gambling is banned.
And ignorance of the law is not an excuse. |
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Bradley Bracken
Goodbye, Farewell, Amen
Join date: 2 Apr 2007
Posts: 3,856
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11-12-2007 19:19
so new users are expected to not only refer to the tos, knowledge base, and the community standards, but to scrutinise all the past blog postings as well? Of course they should update the TOS. It's odd that they haven't. In this particular scenario, however, it was very clear to the op that gambling had been banned. If someone else wants to come in and start a gambling operation, or make machines with their eyes shut, I would refer back to my last post stating you do not get into a business without doing your research. _____________________
My interest in SL has simply died. Thanks for all the laughs
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Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
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11-12-2007 19:20
people keep stating the obvious fact that we are expected to conform to us law. i dont see anyone debating this, so why does it keep being brought up? the point i am making is that it is unreasonable to expect everyone to know what these laws are, and it is a stupid decision to not include MAJOR yet inobvious ones in the tos. your debating it and bringing it up this actualy has nothing to do with law it has to do with what linden lab has decided and if it happens to jive with law so be it. Your the one saying you dont check at every single website. Others are point out that regardless of where you go in real world or on the internet your supposed to know the difference and not knowing is not an excuse. Regardless of what you think people are expected to find out and know and understand to the best of their ability and regardless of your rational (not mine) your expected to go to the website and learn what you can and can do in that venue and what you can and can do period. Some are pretty obvious some are not so obvious learning is a life long process and we never stop. Refusing to open your eyes and acknowledge the fact that in this case someone has said "no you can't do that here" is just well silly. However there will always be someone who wants to challenge it and so let them challenge it if they so wish. Me i'm stuanchy and prudish and dont really challenge much of anything and pretty much do as i'm told with regards to rules. I drive the speed limit and i pay my taxes and when i play this game i dont look for loopholes twist as to what is an obvious no, but some will. so let them I'm also not even american so i dont actualy care about US law with regards to gambling and I also don't gamble so i care even less., but in the scheme of things we can toss aside the law because LL has made the decision for us GAMLING IS NOT ALLOWED the rest is completely irrelevant beyond words. so anyhow have fun debating the finer points of what you should and should not know as for me i try my best to know and am not perfect but this one its like in big bold print and pretty hard to not know unless your intentionally trying to avoid knowing _____________________
I know the competition that will come along someday is learning from LL's mistakes. But do they have to make so many? |
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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11-12-2007 19:25
no, i am NOT debating it. i am not questioning whether it is or is not against the rules or the law. what i am questioning is ll's decision to not state in a logical place a rule that they feel so strongly about and a rule that many people will not expect to be in place.
_____________________
SLU - ban em then bash em!
~~GREATEST HITS~~ pro-life? gtfo! slu- banning opposing opinions one at a time http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/zomgwtfbbqgtfololcats/15428-disingenuous.html learn to shut up and nod in agreement... or be banned! http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/off-topic/1239-americans-not-stupid.html |
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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11-12-2007 19:27
no, the blog is not the tos. and claiming that a legit ammendment to the tos can be expected to take place in a blog post on page 23 is chickenshit.
A blog post IS the TOS or Community Standards. From the very first paragraph of the Terms of Service, to which you agreed: "Linden Lab may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion, effective upon posting the amended Agreement at the domain or subdomains of http://secondlife.com where the prior version of this Agreement was posted, or by communicating these changes through any written contact method we have established with you." That being said, the location of where it is specifically said that gambling is illegal has already been quoted several times in this thread. Does anybody have any further use for this expired horse? Chris, you can push this issue to the very edge of the envelope, even rally some folks here in the forum around your cause, but it will change nothing. He's not pinin'. He's passed on. This horse is no more. He has ceased to be! He's expired and gone on to meet his maker! He's a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed him to that perch, he'd be pushing up the daisies! His metabolic processes are now history! He's off the twig! He's kicked the bleedin' choir invisible! This is an EX HORSE! _____________________
SLU - ban em then bash em!
~~GREATEST HITS~~ pro-life? gtfo! slu- banning opposing opinions one at a time http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/zomgwtfbbqgtfololcats/15428-disingenuous.html learn to shut up and nod in agreement... or be banned! http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/off-topic/1239-americans-not-stupid.html |
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Laura Lobo
Registered User
Join date: 8 Sep 2006
Posts: 79
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11-12-2007 19:36
no, the blog is not the tos. and claiming that a legit ammendment to the tos can be expected to take place in a blog post on page 23 is chickenshit. This is why LL usually just warns you few times before banning you. However US law enforcement agencies may not be so lenient. If you do something bad enough for law enforcement to take action then you probably were well aware what you were doing was wrong. |
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Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
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11-12-2007 19:38
no, i am NOT debating it. i am not questioning whether it is or is not against the rules or the law. what i am questioning is ll's decision to not state in a logical place a rule that they feel so strongly about and a rule that many people will not expect to be in place. i stand corrected but it was really tempting to put "yes you are " (okay i'm pulling your leg now) to be honest the guy just wants to find a way to rationalize a casino my suggestion is "go argue this with a linden" to him because in all honesty we all know what is allowed with regards to this. If you run into a newbie who doesn't the correct thing to do (for me anyhow ..) is to tell them "no SL does not allow gambling". Its a very short answer and requires very little time or effort and I think his question has been answered and in this case he would be better trying to debate this with a Linden orr he can just test his argument by putting up a casino and seeing what happens and try to pass it off an an ingenius and new experiment _____________________
I know the competition that will come along someday is learning from LL's mistakes. But do they have to make so many? |
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
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11-12-2007 19:46
no, the blog is not the tos. Says you. The terms of service say differently. and claiming that a legit ammendment to the tos can be expected to take place in a blog post on page 23 is chickenshit. And until it is successfully challenged in court, it stands that a "legit ammendment to the tos can be expected to take place in a blog post on page 23." _____________________
Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them. |
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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11-12-2007 19:47
Zap, did you get Figtree's permission to rip off Python?
_____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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11-12-2007 19:48
ZOMG
Gambling is banned now? How long has this been going on? |
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
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11-12-2007 20:01
No, I telephoned Mr. Cleese directly. I have him on speed dial you know.
Zap, did you get Figtree's permission to rip off Python? _____________________
Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them. |
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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11-12-2007 20:02
No, I telephoned Mr. Cleese directly. I have him on speed dial you know. Oh you are the coolest guy in this thread _____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
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Gaybot Blessed
Heavenly Input Collector
Join date: 3 Oct 2007
Posts: 306
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11-12-2007 20:04
Of course they should update the TOS. I have officially added that suggestion to my list of DEMANDS! in the Feature Suggestions area of the forums... /13/87/222592/1.html#post1756911 I'm going to make a signature... |
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Isablan Neva
Mystic
Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 2,907
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11-12-2007 20:04
We're having a TOS argument without Elex? Isn't that against the TOS?
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 http://slurl.com/secondlife/TheBotanicalGardens/207/30/420/ |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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11-12-2007 20:05
We're having a TOS argument without Elex? Isn't that against the TOS? If its not, it should be. |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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11-12-2007 20:06
I have officially added that suggestion to my list of DEMANDS! in the Feature Suggestions area of the forums... /13/87/222592/1.html#post1756911/13/87/222592/1.html#post1756911 I'm going to make a signature... I doubt they will ever spell it out. They have more flexibility if they do not. They dont spell out any other crimes either do they? |