Discussion Thread - Details on the Q2 2008 Island Price Change

LL is not a government. They are a private company that sold you a service--not land. Also, you can still resell your island--even to this day. What LL has never guaranteed is that you could sell your island or plot at a profit or even for the same amount you paid for it.



They have announced this change in advance of its implementation. Do you think that your island would be worth more now if LL had come and said they would gradually reduce prices until they reach $1000? No one would buy an island at $1675, or $1300--not until it reached $1000. Your island would be worth the same as it is now because people would know the eventual end price.



I am sympathetic. If I had bought an island I would likely be a little let down right about now. I know what it feels like to sell my land in SL at a loss at times but I've also sold some at a great profit. However, I've always known how risky SL is and when you think about its pretty much inevitable that prices for this service will continue to fall. I imagine tier prices will eventually become lower as well as LL gets more efficient(don't laugh) or exposed to competition.

What would truly be unfair is if LL came out and said that island prior to the announcement would still pay $295 tier while new islands would pay only $125. Instead, they have made the reverse true by grandfathering old island tier agreements from the past even though they weren't legally required to do so.

It's just that people can't seem to get past the idea that there is no true "land" in SL and therefore no value except whatever content you provide. Despite knowing they are paying for a service there remains an expectation that land in SL will have the properties of actual, real life, real estate. I wouldn't suggest anyone buy an island even at the reduced rate if they don't have this understanding.

Plato, there is land and it does have value. But its value is volatile and controlled by our secretive landlords. Sean, we both took or will take some losses on this thing. But we've been at it awhile and done well, so I hope this doesn't make you leave the land game for good.

People are making claims of being ripped off because that is how they feel. So to say it is unjustified is to tell people how they should feel. I remember now that you are also the person who thinks that people who don't buy anything should get the same level of customer service as those who pay thousands per year.

I also see you skirted my question about whether you owned a sim or sims by saying you own "mainland" so I will take that as a no, you don't own sims, as it is possible to own a mainland sim.

I think your views on commerce are rather naive, and you don't speak from experience on this issue, and that is my opinion. I will try to remember this when responding to posts in the future.

Adding: Whether or not the complaints are justified, it's quite obvious from all the postings that LL has killed a lot of goodwill amongst the customer base who *were* previously willing to spend a lot of money with them, both in the form of sim purchases and monthly tier at the concierge level of $295/mo on up.

Perhaps their plan is to recover that $9.95 at a time at the $5/mo tier level but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to a lot of people who are posting here and in other areas.

Unjustified in your opinion. I have seen the resale value of my land fall by LL's actions. Now you might not place much value in the cost of an asset, and hey LL are right with you there as their policy exemplifies. However I do. A steady depreciation over time would leave me in the same boat eventually, but considering this option not only depressed estate land it also depressed mainland I fail to see how you can't see the problem.

People move around here you know, domino effect, you've just expanded, you're sitting on your land, you want to sell yuor old smaller plot and wham, LL send prices tumbling. Steady management it is not.

No you are wrong, I only said coming here expressing that LL is ripping them off is unjustified - that is not the same thing at all nor is disagreeing about them actually being ripped off despite what they feel.

You remember wrongly, I said that all SL people should get some support (not the same) from LL because it benefits LL in the long run to do so.

You don't know me, you don't know my level of experience in anything. Do not presume to know. This is a discussion and I expressed that I felt it was unjustifiied and gave good reasons why. Are you telling me how to feel now? My opinions matter as much as anyones about this issue - it matters not whether I have not got an island as mainland is affected by the recent annoucements also.

I skirted nothing - I clearly state I do not have an island.

Owning mainland does not make anyone's voice on this matter any less worthy or relevant. If you do not want to respond to my posts then don't it is that simple.

Personally I think your views of commerce are even more naive if you think this is a good place to create a reliable business. Who is more naive? The person who thought their island would remain the same in value and perhaps increase in value? Or the person who went into this with their eyes open? Just saying...

Well I don't disagree with any of that Ciaran but why do you hold to your idea about land when LL clearly does not? It was their product, they get to define what it is - just because you felt it was an investment does not make it so. Island sales are covered by a service agreement - not by an investment portfolio. I just believe in seeing something as it truly is and my opinion is that there would be far less people upset right now if they had also.

I believe that since I am still taking money OUT of SL per month even after this change that I know more about creating a reliable business here than someone who is not.

You are entitled to your opinions just as I am entitled to mine, the problem with yours is that you are making blanket statements about other residents who are just as equally entitled as you.

I actually agree with you on this. Good will has been harmed and they know it or there would be no extra offers on the table. I do beleive that LL could have made it more clear what the island owners were buying originally but even then they cannot be held responsible for what people beleive they have bought. I would bet L$1000 there is a terms of service you had to agree to when buying the island that says something like it is a service that sits on a server and that prices (especially tier) may fluctuate according to LL's whim.

Have you read LL's literature? Have you read their interviews. Time and again they talk about land ownership, which once you get here is a misnomer. In news interviews they talk of ownership and how it's very much ownership because people can sell it. They paint the picture of virtual land, they don't pay the picture of webhosting.

Servers do not decrease by 40% overnight. This will have been an ongoing reduction in prices. Sensibly managed these reductions would not have caused any need for dispute. 10% off last year, 10% off this year, heck that's less than a month's tier at a time, people would have realised that's the way it works and not felt that their assets were being devalued in such a cavalier attitude.

Special pricing for existing land owners, special offers on open sims, month long sales, people get used to things like that.

40% overnight? That's rash. For a decision to inspire confidence it needs to be reasonably presented. This decision was not.

Yes I am making blanket statements about the "actions" of other residents. This is valid, it is called opinion and it is part of the discussion. Unlike you who have been making assertions about me and what I know without basis of fact.
If the OP or any of the other people here do not want to be in this discussion then they are not forced to be part of it.

Actually this has been brought up before in regards to the guy who took LL to court. The land store says "full ownership" and LL ended up settling that one before it went to trial.

I did not make an assertion about you, I have formed an *opinion* that you are naive and have stated it as such.

Incorrect assertion - see previous reply post.

Incorrect assertion - see previous reply post.

So nothing was proven either way - it means nothing to settle. Certainly LL could have been in trouble for incorrect advertising but I bet their fine print is squeaky clean on the terms of service for an island.

Here is an assertion for you:

Someone sure has their panties in a bunch.

Here is another one:

ALL my posts are my opinion

And a 3rd:

Ignore list updated

Sure I have but I beleive when I read that it is in the implied context of a virtual world. you would not expect them to fully qualify it everytime they talked about it would you? Inworld you do own it, you have all the rights of an owner (mostly). However in RL it is clear you own nothing...at least clear to me anyway. In RL it is clear to me the fantasy stops and you are getting a service. I think this really is a case of people wanting to see what they want to see.



No they don't but you might not have been charged when they started to depreciate is all. Besides I don't really beleive this is about server price. It is about finding many more people to pay tier and boost membership numbers. The enticing idea that having an island that you can afford (for some) is compelling and they think quite rightly in my opinion they will shift more islands.

Why should LL not decrease the service setup charge by whatever they want? Why do you feel they should consult island owners? You are not partners or investors however much you think you are but just regular customers is all - customers who spend a lot more than most sure but still customers and whilst some companies listen to their customers, virtually none pass price changes by them first.

They would not have called it web-hosting anyway, SL islands are not web content but they are an internet based service all the same.

Of course they paint the picture of virtual land - it is - the keyword here is virtual. Inworld it is land, out of world it is service hosting.

Lol another incorrect assertion, my pulse is hardly racing over this.

Ciaran is making some good points though

Why are you putting words in my mouth? First it was I'd called them cheats and rip off merchants and now it's that I think they should consult island owners. I said no such thing, LL can do what they like. However it's bad practice to make your customers feel like they're losing value in such a fashion, in any industry, hence why Apple were issuing credits to their customers recently over iPhone pricing.



There's also an economy here, it's another big selling point of this place. It's a virtual economy, but hey the money going in and out is real enough. Virtual money inworld equates to real money outside the world.

I didn't say that you personally had called anyone cheats but just that it has been said - it was a more general response. On the consulting question I posed. It just seemed to me that you were advocating that LL consult with land owners before this move went ahead. If I got that wrong then I retract - it is easy to make a wrong turn on a discussion sometimes and get an impression of something that is clearly not correct.
My point is that if people only think of land in context of being inworld and a service in RL that people are paying for then suddenly everything LL has done makes more sense. It all seems senseless because people are thinking that inworld land equates to something more than a service on the outside in RL.

I bought a bunch of Mainland when it was 25/meter.
I would have trouble selling it for 10/meter.
I don't care, I am having fun with it.

source: http://goldengate.bbb.org/WWWRoot/Report.aspx?site=99&bbb=1116&firm=57373

"Based on BBB files, this company has an *unsatisfactory record* with the BBB due to unanswered complaints."

In the past 36 months, complaints have been filed (with the Better Business Bureau) against Linden Lab in the following 8 areas of business practice:

----------------------------------------------

Advertising Issues - Claims alleging print or electronic media advertised claims or practices misrepresent the service or product offer.

Contract Issues - Claim of alleged failure to honor contract or agreement, work performed without authorization, or invalid contract.

Billing or Collection Issues - Claim alleging billing errors, unauthorized charges, or questionable collection practices.

Sales Practice Issues - Claims of alleged sales presentations made in person or by telephone that contain misrepresentations of the product or service, high pressure sales practices, failure to disclose key conditions of the offer, and verbal representations not consistent with written contractual terms or agreements.

Delivery Issues - Claims alleging delayed delivery of ordered merchandise.

Service Issues - Claims of alleged delay in completing service, failure to provide promised service, inferior quality of provided service, or damaged merchandise as a result of delivery service.

Customer Service Issues - Claims alleging unsatisfactory customer service, including personnel's failure to provide assistance in a timely manner, failure to address or respond to customer dissatisfaction, unavailability for customer support, and/or inappropriate behavior or attitude exhibited by company staff.

Refund or Exchange Issues - Claim of alleged failure to honor company policy or verbal commitment to provide refunds, exchanges, or credit for products or services.

-----------------------------------------------------

If you remain unhappy with LL's handling of this particular issue (or any others),
I'd encourage you to file a grievance with the Better Business Bureau.

Here: https://odr.bbb.org/odrweb/public/GetStarted.aspx

Complaints are sent to the company within 2 business days.
They are typically 'resolved' within 30.

My thoughts

I just bought two open spaces to go with my sim on March 30th, I feel a cheated. (2 days. hummm) I think linden should offer all of us that jumped at that great new offer to buy one "open space" deal rather then the old "must buy 4", in March (maybe one extra) lol. However!!! I think it is a good Idea to lower the prices, they were a bit high.(especially with the economy going down) But I also think any one owning a sim that paid that higher price of $1675 should now be able to roll back to the grandfather tier, of $195. Then the new purchases of $1000 would pay the new tier of $295. That would be fair for everyone. It would also help people who can afford to rent a SIM but not buy one.
However.....

I think the real reason LL is doing this is because they want the UK dollars back and by doing this they will include the VAT charge with the price, then all the UK people that dumped sims when they had to pay more will now jump at the new pricing. and their tier will also include the Vat charge.. The Euro dollar is much better then the US. so it is to LL advantage to take it.. Now the question is.. Is this fair to us in the US hummmm.. Lots of thoughts Lots of questions.... Is SL becoming a ATA or ALoha Airlines. hummm.

Last thought, if this is a true community, then when Linden comes up with these ideas, how about putting the idea out for discussion and maybe even a vote..

Casandra Zolnir]My thoughts. I just bought two open spaces to go with my sim on March 30th, I feel a cheated. (2 days. hummm) I think linden should offer all of us that jumped at that great new offer to buy one "open space" deal rather then the old "must buy 4", in March (maybe one extra) lol. However!!! I think it is a good Idea to lower the prices, they were a bit high.(especially with the economy going down) But I also think any one owning a sim that paid that higher price of $1675 should now be able to roll back to the grandfather tier, of $195. Then the new purchases of $1000 would pay the new tier of $295. That would be fair for everyone. It would also help people who can afford to rent a SIM but not buy one.
However.....

I think the real reason LL is doing this is because they want the UK dollars back and by doing this they will include the VAT charge with the price, then all the UK people that dumped sims when they had to pay more will now jump at the new pricing. and their tier will also include the Vat charge.. The Euro dollar is much better then the US. so it is to LL advantage to take it.. Now the question is.. Is this fair to us in the US hummmm.. Lots of thoughts Lots of questions.... Is SL becoming a ATA or ALoha Airlines. hummm.

Last thought, if this is a true community, then when Linden comes up with these ideas, how about putting the idea out for discussion and maybe even a vote..[/QUOTE]

Considering the amount of Estates, the people complaining are a fraction of the total amount of Estate owners. In my opinion, most will not be affected a bit, as I already explained in another topic. An Estate owner who is in the game for long term, could care less about the sim price but is interested in mainly the monthly costs.

So buying an Estate gets cheaper, so what. It's still 1000 dollars. At the end of the year, you have payed 4540 dollars for your Estate. No petty cash I'd say. Okay, it would have been 5235 dollar with the old purchase price. But for both goes the same: you have to have a solid business plan to make it work, or have much disposable budget for entertainment.

The only effect it has, it that once you sell your Estate, it's worth a lot less then when you purchased it. And of course that is a sour grape. But it would have been just as bad if LL decided to lower the price in 3 steps as well. So basically you will not get your investment price back by selling your Island. That is the risk you took when purchasing it in the first place.
Each and every Estate owner must have had a plan to recover the purchase costs. Some do it by making renters pay an upfront price, some just rent out their land against slightly higher tiers but no upfront price. In the end, they both get their payments for the Island back. Either to purchase a second Island, or to have higher margins after the recoup. But the initial purchase has been recouped.

So yes, I do understand people are not amused by seeing their asset being sold for 40% lower then they payed for it. But that is a risk they took when buying. No one ever made a promise about not getting cheaper. So cope with it, and be glad your next estate can be purchased a lot cheaper

Before I get asked: No I do not own an Estate. Neither do I own land: I rent. But if you want only Island owners to reply, you should start an Island Owners Forum.

Everything you are stating is find, Plato. But you don't seem to understand the fundamental following point:

We all know that it is not a "government" but a private company and they can do whatever they wish including going backrupt and shutting everything down tomorrow morning if so they wish.

I also believe that we should all have expected prices to go down. Ask Ginger... I've stated it to him many times in world. In fact, I was expecting sharp price decreases... Over time.

However... There is a cowboy way to do things and a professional way to do things. Linden Lab did it the cowboy way.

Clearly, their own short term satisfaction is important (which is fine, they are a private company, they can chose to be selfish as much as they want) with disregard to their current clients (that's usually not a good way to build a long-term profitable business) - and, especially, disregard to the way they have sold their services.

They do not sell land as a "web hosting" service nor as a "TV". They sell it as "land". They also publish economic statistics, daily. And they promote it like that outside SL to attract people to SL.

Therefore, it was absolutely normal for clients to expect them to behave as such and act more responsibly like a government would do. They prefered to act like cowboys in the far west. Fine! They can. The cavalry is nowhere in sight to come help us! And... I must say that it has provided us all with a lot of entertainment this week. Expensive, but entertaining!