Discussion Thread - Details on the Q2 2008 Island Price Change

Typically no you don't pay for the server your hosted on, you pay a monthly rental plan, well some let you pay for the year.

There are people for whom the starting price does make a difference. People like Chaos who can't save up much money are much less intimidated by 1k than 1675 and might actually make it - they can handle paying 295/month but they cannot put out 1675 in one shot.

The change to open spaces was mostly a wash and lined up the tier in a sensible manner. They didn't increase tier without giving more for your dollar. It was a minuscule increase that was well worth what was given in return.

I disagree.

If you look at it this way, LL will NEVER be allowed to reduce prices in order to compete. There will always be recent island buyers who will feel shafted. ALWAYS. It doesn't matter how much notice, or how big a period they give grace to - someone is going to be pissed off because their resale value has taken a hit and the internal competition is going to go up... a hit that would eventually happen ANYWAY because of competition.

It is more important to focus on getting value out of the land through usage, if you are an established estate owner, because the market in the future is not going to look anything like it does now.

Then that will be the eventual purchase price of a Sim in Second Life or its descendant,

Zero.

Funny you should bring up Chaos. I am thinking of how I will have to break the news to him if I decide I need to sell my sims because of LL's lack of caring for their customers. I don't *want* to get rid of my sims but I am beginning to think it might be best with this latest move on the part of LL. Better to get something for them and sell them than wait until more price cuts and get nothing. Especially when I am trying to help a talented person and not making big profits off my sim instead.

It was one thing to be able to rent it to him for the price of tier as long as it held its current value but now that has changed, I am sure that many landowners will have to raise rent or sell now that they have assets that are declining in value.

Yes but how many others? It's still expensive in general terms. The vast majority of the grid consists of small parcels, that's what people can afford.



Bingo, more for your dollar. Creative pricing structure. However the change again just one month later is where I am concerned over LL's current policies, one month is not a long time.



Oh balderdash (God I love that word)!!! No company ever anywhere on the planet would be able to reduce prices if that were the case, margins are the issue, it's being creative. LL need creative thinking on this whole issue. Bundling items, freebies if you buy x amount, random special offers, help with building, different pricing packages depending upon your need, throwing in free objects, guides, books, vouchers, T-shirts, tickets yadda yadda yadda.

Why don't they sell open space sims to anybody? There's an entry level land model.

Server hosting is more akin to where a sim will fit into the equation.

I meant the purchase price will be zero eventually

The Tier of course will cost money

If thats how its done on the 2D web thats how the 3D web will likely become.

Sorry Colette, I should have expanded, you pay for the server with server hosting. Generally this is done via a lease agreement.

Another option is to buy your own server and have someone host it for you.

IIRC, tier went up $2.50. And for that, you got double your prims. That was a hell of a lot more for the dollar, but it was done to make sense.


You keep saying LL needs to be creative. But no "creative" model allows them to reduce the price of land, because the existing base would be up in arms. The market changed. And it will change again. No one has realized a loss. It's a hit to resale value that was going to happen once some real competition came along. The are already giving people a free open space sim with no setup costs. No, that doesn't ameliorate the potential loss for people who have large estates, but I say again that competition is going to change the landscape in the future, and you are not going to get back what you put in to buy the island. Get used to the idea and maximize what you've got.

Of course a creative model allows them to reduce costs. My broadband speed keeps increasing, they don't charge me more, that's technically a reduction. My cable company give me extra channels, that's technically a price reduction.

They could bundle an open space sim with every purchase, that's technically a reduction in costs. They could have extended the free tier period to two months, that's technically a reduction in costs. They had many many options, they've gone for the one that was the most disruptive.

Come on Ciaran. If you bought your island two months and one day earlier you would still be pissed.

Now the bundling idea is interesting. Why not suggest that to Jack instead? I doubt it will make much impact bc of LL's monolithic structure but it's worth a shot.

If you bought an island 2 months & 1 day earlier I'd be willing to bet LL would work with those people on a case-by-case basis. That is what they are already doing but gambling on the fact that most people won't want to turn in their sim and have it re-sissued at a lower price.

ahh okay so the the cost of the equipment is figured in, but not all up front?

Do you not see Second Life or its descendant going this route eventually then?

The 2D web is huge compared to SL it seems they would follow the established systems if they actually branch out like that?

Land printing is a friggin' great (and accurate) term!

You're looking at it from the wrong angle, your hosting fees are cheaper if you buy the server yourself on the 2D web.

Why is that the wrong angle?

Example: I've had my company's website on leased servers since its inception 11 years ago. I've never even considered buying a server of my own because the initial price and headache of setting it up seemed to be big enough time hurdles to stop me from even bothering with the idea too much. I would say currently that the percentage of business my company generates from the website is close to 50%, so the cost of paying for that rental is really tiny compared to the actual business the service creates for me. I also completely create and manage my website by myself, which is enough of a task for me without worrying about servers... and which is why I am happy to pay a hosting company a rental fee for the server I do use.

In my mind the Second Life platform is moving towards becoming a hosting service.

Make your grid any ole way ya want following certain protocols, and pay Linden Lab to connect your grid to the "Metaverse". It seems pretty easy to replace "grid" with "website", "certain protcols" with "use HTML as your base" and "metaverse" with "internet".

You already don't need Linden Lab to make a grid. Eventually, maybe not for a few more years but eventually you wont need Linden Lab to connect to the "metaverse" either. Linden Lab knows this.

I pay Network Solutions to register my website domain name, a web hosting service specific to my business for server space, and make my own website. Yes, Network Solutions offers me all to these services in one place, but the choice to host thru a service specific to my business was a better one for me because part of what the hosting service does for my business is promote it along with other businesses in my industry, thus providing me with added value for my money, that hosting thru Network Solutions or my own servers wouldn't provide. And I'm kinda creative, so I like building and maintaining my company website... it gives me a little more control over the way my business is perceived by those visiting it online.

So, does Linden Lab want to be Network Solutions? I bet it does. Will some people be happy to use Linden Lab for all of their "metaverse" needs? Sure.

But essentially, all you are paying Linden Lab for is server space and networking capabilities. Competition is out there busily banging out more ways for you to use the same technology to accomplish the same goals.

Flatten out Second Life a second and think of your "Land" as your "website". Right now I pay nothing for my website, only the services it uses. I also pay nothing for my standalone grid but will have to eventually pay someone if I want to be able to connect that grid to the metaverse. But my "land" is free.

Land prices in Second Life are headed down folks, way way way down. I've already got a $L2 bet with Desmond that within 2 years there will be another viable currency for the metaverse other then the Linden Dollar. I'm gonna go out on a limb and bet another $L2 that within 2 years your "land" in Second Life is going to be priced at half of what it was at the beginning of this year, if not completely free, because there are already companies offering the same sorts of 'land' services (albeit without all the bells and whistles... yet) that can connect you to the metaverse for under a hundred dollars a SIM/region.

Tier... now that's where they are gonna get ya. "Land" is a one-off purchase. Tier is forever.

Because you're still paying for the server, you could choose to buy your own server and go for lower hosting costs, both models exist today but there's no "free server" involved.

LL might want to offer two tier types, upfront cost, cheaper tier. I mean that's a model many estate owners already apply, but the idea that the server is free is looking at it from the wrong angle.

You might be right. SL might just be a "3D internet"... However:

1) It is not what LL is selling at the moment. They are advertising "land sales", they publish "economic statistics" and they refer to the economic forces of offer/demand for land in SL when discussing that topic. Are they just using smoke and mirror to sell us something that should cost about 40$ a month with no upfront cost? This would fall under misleading advertising...

2) No matter what... As a company, they should still have somebody who knows how to talk to clients. There are ways to make your long-time clients "buy in" drastical changes instead of letting them feel unwanted. They can buy a book for 20$ and read it - or hire somebody who wasn't asleep during his Public Relations 101 course. It's not that complicated - IF you care about your clients.

No I'm thinking long term as opposed to "right now"

If LL wants to foster in the age of the 3D web they will have to back off of the "hosting the entire thing" plan.

Several Lindens have said as much in the past.

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Its not me who wants LL to think this way, or even think it makes sense .. Its just how they claim to want things in the future.

Never said there was.

Theoretical Equation:
"Land" equals "website" I can make websites all day long on a variety of programs that are all based on the same HTML. But until I register my domain name somewhere and then have someone host the space necessary for the website on a server somewhere, my website would be considered "standalone". I can see it on my computer, but you cant see it on yours.

But I don't pay for my website, I only pay to have someone register it's domain and then provide server space for it. Website = free. Registration = paid service. Server space = paid service.

You can certainly pay someone to create a website for you. But you don't have to if you can figure out how to make it yourself.

In the future I am betting that you won't have to pay anyone for "virtual land" either, no matter if that's the way it has been sold to you NOW or not. You will be able to make your own. You could then buy a server if you wanted to and host it yourself, invite folks over if you wanted to, or not. You'll still have to pay someone to register the "domain" of your "virtual land", but will it necessarily only have to be Linden Lab? I don't think so.

Colette's right, Linden Lab can't host the entire metaverse.

There is no long term example of what you're describing, nobody offers servers at no cost. What you're describing is people buying servers off LL and then selling server space. The servers are not free.

If you're not having to pay anyone for "virtual land" then why the bloody hell are you buying a server?

Your "website" isn't going anywhere unless someone pays for a "server".

no you are missing it I think.

I get that they arent free

You said that on the 2D web the purchase price is included in the lease .. I am just saying that SL will likely become more like the 2D web

By long term I mean "Eventually" in the Long Run ..

Someday ..


Or in other words .. Whats more likely 5 years from now - will people be paying $2000USD for a server and teir fees?

Or will it be more like a 2D web hosting service is today?

Web hosting and server hosting are very different beasts. Web hosting you pay for use of someone else's space. Server hosting, you pay for the server and sell people space. In terms of server hosting, if you know what you're doing then it can be cheaper to buy your own server.

The LL model is a hybrid mix, we pay an upfront cost and then LL host the server but they also maintain it, that's a little different from existing models. However the server has to be paid for.

So what we may have is, upfront cost, lower tier fees, leased cost, higher tier fees. However as LL allow resale of servers and there's a thriving market there they have a responsibility not to shaft that market. If they want to change that model and say your fee only pays for x amount of time then fine, but that's not the way it lies now.