Question about sim ownership and public rights

No, but it does cover real people. And Innula, I think, was specifically talking about banning someone on the basis of the gender or race or nationality of the typist, not the avatar. I think, anyway?

I was. I suppose it's arguable whether access to a sim or club in SL constitutes the provision of goods or services under British leglislation but, if it does, then as far as I know, I'm subject to the same laws I would be if I were providing any other goods and services via the internet or any other means, so long as I'm in the UK when I do it.

I don't see how discrimination against a represented race in SL could cause legal difficulties, but I'm pretty sure if someone announced, for example, he was banning all Brazilians from his sim (deciding who was Brazilian based on their groups, I guess, and if he heard them speaking Portuguese) because he didn't like Brazilians, LL wouldn't be too happy.

And you would know this for certain, how?

Pep (Like those wonderful "female-only" sims. )

Did you miss the thread about a sim who banned non-Japanese speakers?

Pep (No action by LL.)

Where do you live? Where I live, many bars and cafes still display the old, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" signs. Even those who don't display the sign do retain the legal right.
'Didn't like the look of 'em.' is as valid a reason as they need.
Educational institutions, hospitals, etc. would be different of course, but an entertainment venue can 'ban' anyone they want. Just consider all the LA clubs with the velvet ropes.

edited to add-My stepson worked as a mallcop during college and daily had to explain to people that the mall was private property and they could, in fact, be forced to leave.
In your defense, I've met my share of immature, ban-happy sims owners, but they are still well within their rights.

I don't imagine that a ban based on represented race, gender, nationality or sexuality could be challenged legally, but ethically is, of course, a different matter. I very much wonder how, if at all, LL would respond to complaints about a sim that banned representations of nonwhites, for instance? Or refused access to gays?

Pep, for what it is worth, I find sims restricted to females highly problematic too. The justification for this at lesbian sims is, I suppose, that they don't want males "getting off" on lesbian sex. But as the likelihood is that a high proportion of the "lesbians" there are likely men anyway, this hardly seems worthwhile or effective. I've heard rumours of sims or groups that enforce a "voice" test on women to ensure that they ARE women, but I think that is problematic for other reasons too.

The only real justification I can think of for banning males is from the "refuges" for women in-world, a few of which exist as places for females to go if they find themselves being stalked or harassed. The same problem, of course, about the disguised representations exists there too, and it is always possible that the stalker is herself a woman, but it at least helps screen out potential abusers. A much better system of course is simply to restrict access to such refuges to those who have applied for help.

I must have done. Though it's a bit different -- presumably the sim owner would have said anyone was welcome on the sim, no matter what his nationality, so long as he spoke Japanese while he was there.

You have asked three questions here; I may be the sole dissenting opinion, but ~ you have rights, strictly speaking, believe it or not.


1. Do sim owners have the complete power to choose who can access the sim even if the sim is a supposedly public place, like a club for example?

Strictly speaking, no. "Complete power to choose" is the operational phrase.

a) first obvious example: service technicians have access regardless if you like it or not, if your region is causing a problem for others on the same hardware.

b) FBI or other governmental bodies with a proper warrant and jurisdiction can get access

c) a longstanding pattern of extreme abuse, discrimination with hatred against certain groups and so forth could also get you shut down (thus implying "complete power" isn't true). Difficult but possible. For instance, if there were to ever be a region named "KKKlan" or something like that, expect them to have trouble, regardless of public/private expectations.

The most clear, obvious way to realise a region owner's limitations is this: just because someone is on your land, you may not abuse them with impunity. Restricting access may sound like a very limited case of abuse, but at some point even that kind of abuse could qualify, if coupled with other broadly offending practises.

For instance: asking someone: "are you a muslim" or "are you a jew" before deciding to ban, and doing so in an abusive manner. A nonabusive manner might be a mosque or a temple, where only group members are allowed, but if say *only* members of a group are banned from an otherwise public area, that's different.

This is also very subjective territory ~ if the group being banned is a major religion, that's one thing, but if you are banning members of a griefer group that has attacked you 656236242632141 times in the last few days, that's quite another. People can argue endlessly (and have) over where to draw that line. In such cases, common sense and the powers of the estate owner typically prevail.


2) My question is that can a person, who has done nothing wrong, be banned just because one of the club's personnel does not like to see that person in the club (for whatever reason)?

This is a subtly different question than the first one. In most instances, 99.999% of the time, yes they can. Freedom of assembly and association is a right of individuals, but forced freedom of someone to associate *with you* even if they don't want to, is not a right. Replace the word 'club' with 'temple' or 'women's resource center' and you'll see why.


3) But what is the case in SL? Are the sim owners omnipotent in this sense and there is no rules and regulations about this?

It's not spelled out, but there are limits. Probably the most blatant way to dig them up is this: buy a region, then call up concierge and ask: "can I do anything I want to people on my region?" I had a friend do *exactly* that once, I think just for laughs more than anything else. The answer, of course, was obviously: "No, you can't."

For instance, say you froze anyone that showed up, decorated their avatars with humiliating... ah... 'objects' and posted screenshots of each one to Flickr, linked to their avatar names and many less than savoury other keywords. You just might find yourself in trouble, even if it was your region


* * * * *

The core issue here is the fuzzy line between public and private.

There are no crystal clear zoning rules. For instance, an ostensibly public shop might be someone's bedroom 500 milliseconds later. Land isn't sold as "public" in any case; it's all sold as private, but then privacy is watered down to the point that expectation of a public space becomes overwhelming.

For instance, anyone landing in downtown Victoria City is going to probably be stunned if there were a Sexgen Ultraplatinum Humpomatic Force 69 SteamBed* with brass fittings and a steam whistle sitting out on the lawn, coal~fired up and ready to go. But strictly speaking, the *entire* estate is "owned" by me as the estate owner, and not public.

At some point, common law and common sense simply has to take over, or no one could function in society. But where that line is drawn, is generally drawn in private discussion at Linden Research and not something we are privy to, save by precedent.

In a way this has created a class society, with land barons and landed gentry able to act with near impunity, while 'have nots' pretty much have to watch their step wherever they go. Why? A famous informant once said: "follow the money."

There aren't too many public spaces out there, really; arguably zero percent of the private estates qualify as truly public. At some point though, once a land baron is acting on a large enough scale the chilling effects of an authoritarian society will become very readily apparent, and you'll see freedoms emerge, simply out of exigent financial circumstance.

Keep asking questions like this ~ I personally find this topic intensely worthwhile.

Once in a while I log into the grid not as Des, but as a wanderer in not~too~good self~made clothes, and the difference in experience is just downright cold and unbelievably nasty once you get away from 'welcome' areas. I'm just waiting for someone to prove me wrong, and the first person that does will be very, very glad they did so.


*this does not actually exist; simply made up for theoretical discussion

I saw someone say that you can ban anyone but the Lindens.

This is incorrect, you may ban Lindens and they will be unable to enter your sim with god mode off. If you have a valid reason for banning a particular Linden, and they enter your land/region using god mode without a valid reason this is also grounds for filing a complaint against them.

This.

You can refuse people in RL for no reason or for just cause. But not for unjust cause. You could probably assume the same result in SL if you pressed the issue - but unless a person lets on that they have an unjust cause, you'll have a tough time proving it.

A lot of people in the US fail to understand that many places they think are public are actually private - such as a shopping mall.

Laws in other countries might vary, and some states make private places holding out a public use act as if they were public (California for example to a degree) - but in general in the US - owners of private property can use it as they desire as long as they do not violate some -other- civil right.

I believe California does have a rule which forces private land held out for a public purpose in a manner resembling a traditional public space (example: the walkways of a shopping mall akin to a sidewalk) to be forced to recognize rights such as free speech there. But if so, it also likely has limits.
- you might be able to use that to say that in SL, which is subject to California law, you could walk around the sidewalks in a mall carrying a protest sign. But you would not be able to use it to say you could keep doing that the moment you entered a shop or club in that mall. But that would be a tough sell, as you're dealing with a virtual 'sidewalk' which is not close enough in concept to the traditional 'public street.'

Really great post, Des, and one that answers my question earlier, and then some.

One way in which RL would do well to be more like SL. A property owner should always be able to choose who is on his property. Property rights are the basic of human rights.

On the other hand, banning someone for being a jerk should be encouraged.

I've learned the hard way that one's instincts are often correct, and to try to be polite to someone who has shown themselves to be discourteous, who could care less about the rules of the place whatever those might be, and who gives an air of hostility, is usually a losing battle and is more often met with more hostility, argument, and even verbal abuse.

In short, it's easier just to eject or ban sometimes than to try to explain why. Most people don't ask anyway.

It sounds simple to put it this way, but it's not simple at all.

1) What can be property?

2) And who enforces said rights? Are a bunch of Navajo going to be suddenly very, very rich tomorrow?

Property rights are basic, yes, but much in the way of "might makes right."

Agreed. And it should also be noted that "property rights" are both a relatively recent invention, and simultaneously (arguably) a rather outdated notion inherited from the 18th century. I'm not so sure I see them as a "basic right," except insofar as they are part of the more (to my mind) basic right to subsistence.

I don't know that all real world notions can be applied in this case - after all, even being in Second Life is elective.

Being in first life, not as much.

Funny thing, when i ban someone from my sim, and they argue its *public* place, i tend to tell them as long as *I* pay the tier, its my right to allow who i want, when i want, or not. If they wish to pay that money to LL on my behalf, by all means they can make the call, but until then.. i can ban for any reason, or no reason.

I once banned a guy who was a complete ass. He always had a complaint..and HE always brought race into it. *Everyone greeted me cause i'm black*... no everyone greeted you cause that's their JOB. *Not enough folks spoke, its cause I'm black*... no, its cause you complained too many folks spoke last time, trying to respect Your wishes. The last time he came in, a noob, who had landed about 10 minutes before him, and was discussing this *strange new world* with my employees, made the comment.."Wow, my first black avatar".. which was said not long after he remarked on my neko avie. Now no one there seemed to think it was odd.. but mr. nothing makes me happy, who promptly started screaming about racism and was just being a jerk, so i booted and banned him. Told Him obviously no matter what WE did, he wasn't happy and He should find another place to frequent. He kindly offered to report me to the Lindens for racism, i politely offered him the number to call.
Before i muted him, he also informed me he was a RL attorney, and had plans to file RL charges on me & my business, based on racism. I told him to feel free, that i wasn't worried.. and i am not.
I also banned a chick that came in cussing and acting like a fool.. who informed me as an *adult* parcel she could say or do anything she pleased, and she was going to *report me to LL for banning her from a public place*. I also offered her the number to LL and my best wishes on that.

Point of it all is... Just because me, or any other land owner opts to open our land for folks to visit and use, doesn't give people the right to do or say anything they please. As long as *I* pay the tier, its my little slice of heaven. Harsh my mellow, and find your self flying. simple as that. We have rules posted to keep the drama to a minimum, and if people think because its an adult sim, they are exempt from said rules, they soon find out different. I was told that booting, banning, and muting are all acceptable.. and my right.

It doesn't matter the size of the land, from the smallest 512 to the largest collection of sims, the person that pays the tier holds the right to allow or boot/ban on a whim. Does it make it fair? Who's call is that? in my mind, its perfectly fair that for what i pay, i shouldn't have to be subjected to ANYTHING i find inappropriate.

We like company. We don't care if your human, furrie, or otherwise, race, religion, creed, color, or gender. We ask for some common courtesy. If that's too much to ask, so is asking to stay in my sim. My employees work hard for my business, and if you harsh THEIR mellow, same rules apply. Simple.

~Brie

I have been in SL for 2 years and have never found myself banned that I know of,until now ... I recently tried to TP into a sim, morgandy, for a live music show.. I got a you are not allowed in this region you are banned. So, I sent my alt in and found out who owner was.. Apparently I was banned on the estate list.. Strangly enough I had never been in this region and I figured it was a jealouse rival or some such rot... Fine... I dont need to go there. ; ) Not even my alt, which those who know me know who my alt is.... (and you would think she would be banned to huh?) soooooooooo this of course was an unjustified ban. But hey.. whatever if the people at morgandy want to ban me for no reason.. more power to them. (actually the guy who said he was the estate manager said he could remove me, but I said.. well sweety if I am banned for no reason dont bother I wont visit.) he was very nice to be honest. He didnt add me to ban list he said.

ITA.

Visitors often do not realise the hours of work and how much money also goes into running any type of place open to the public. Thankfully it's a labor of love and most people who show up are at least polite. The ones who aren't? Life is tooooo doggone short.

That guest was not just ruining your day he was probably ruining everyone's - your staff, guests, everyone. He also was either not a lawyer in RL or a doggone poor one, since he and you both signed a voluntary contract with a corporation. Its rules include your right to ban people for bad behavior and just about anything else. A real life discrimination case it is not.

ZOMG! I am SO gonna make one of those! Can't call it "Sexgen", but the rest I can do.

Heh! Add a clanging bell to it instead, to go off at the appropriate time... Ding Ding!

OMG now I have to tell this RL story of back in the good old days.. days when I was still a twinkle in my parents eyes. So, listen up because this is a family tall tale.

My father and a group of his rowdy friends were well known for thier bachelor party pranks. So, one couple was pleasantly surprised when his bachelor party went off with no outlandish shenanigans.

It was not until months later that they realized they had been part of probably the most ribald embarrasing prank yet. While the bachelor was busy at his party my father and few companions snuck into the home that the couple was to share and wired the front porch light to a bedspring. With the one part of the wire each on a seperate part of the spring.. thus when the bed springs would bounce.. the porch light would go on and off on and off.. announcing the bedroom endevours to any in the know. It was only discovered when the groom finally got around to trying to fix the light.

This is only a small part of the sense of humor I grew up with. Is it any wonder I am slightly off.

A pub I used to drink in when I was in college used to have a bell in the main bar connected to the condom machine in the men's room.

Pep (Unsuspecting lover-boys used to be extremely bemused to return to the bar to rounds of applause.)

Hi, Hugh.

It's just like RL. Haven't you seen those signs in stores..."We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"?

It's private land, whether there is a store or a club on it or a residential structure, or just a park. The owner can ban whomever they choose.

I leave my land open to everyone, except specific people who have proven to be big enough asshats that they've made my ban list. People who think they have some god-given right to come on my land would probably wind up there, if they started to get on their soapbox and tell me all about their "rights".