Hello everyone!
I have a question that has been bugging me because of a recent incident in SL.
Do sim owners have the complete power to choose who can access the sim even if the sim is a supposedly public place, like a club for example? I understand that people who misbehave and disturb others in the sim can be ejected and banned. My question is that can a person, who has done nothing wrong, be banned just because one of the club's personnel does not like to see that person in the club (for whatever reason)?
To me this sounds totally wrong and in real life would be close to a court case based on discrimination. But what is the case in SL? Are the sim owners omnipotent in this sense and there is no rules and regulations about this?
Thanks for any comments,
Hugh
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Question about sim ownership and public rights |
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Hugh Helendale
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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11-25-2009 02:03
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Francesca Alva
Registered Trademark
Join date: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 507
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11-25-2009 02:11
Sorry, Hugh, the answer is yes. The sim owner, just like the smallest parcel owner, can ban anyone and everyone (except Lindens
 ). They don't even have to give a reason.The only true public spaces in SL are Linden land and welcome centers. |
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Innula Zenovka
Registered User
Join date: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,825
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11-25-2009 02:13
Yeah.. i can ban anyone i like from my sims. I guess if I were to start banning avatars on the basis of the race, gender or nationality of the account holders who operate the avatars I'd run into legal difficulties pretty quickly but otherwise I can restrict access however I want.
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Hugh Helendale
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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11-25-2009 02:20
I will start a civil rights movement against this!
 Thank you for the replies. I got my answer. |
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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11-25-2009 02:25
I guess if you don't like it, the solution is to buy your own sim and ban them...................................
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Hugh Helendale
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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11-25-2009 02:30
I guess if you don't like it, the solution is to buy your own sim and ban them................................... Hmmm... I think the only solution would be to buy THEIR sim and then ban them. Nah, I don't have a quarrel with the sim owners. They are only backing up their personnel, who are acting immaturely. |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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11-25-2009 02:38
To me this sounds totally wrong and in real life would be close to a court case based on discrimination. You can't enter because you're... ... black/white/hispanic/... ... female/male ... handicapped/disabled/... ... etc If you can sue people just because they don't happen to like you then you could just sue any potential employer who turns you down because they're clearly "discriminating" against you by not hiring you.  |
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Hugh Helendale
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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11-25-2009 02:48
Maybe it's me but don't you need a "group trait" to invoke before you can call it "discrimination"? You can't enter because you're... ... black/white/hispanic/... ... female/male ... handicapped/disabled/... ... etc If you can sue people just because they don't happen to like you then you could just sue any potential employer who turns you down because they're clearly "discriminating" against you by not hiring you. Not sure about the legal stuff, but to me it sounds like a case you could sue on, if you are rejected from a public place because a person who works there doesn't like you. Discrimination might be wrong word here, I give you that.  Maybe slander or defamation? |
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Pserendipity Daniels
Assume sarcasm as default
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 8,839
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11-25-2009 02:58
Not sure about the legal stuff, but to me it sounds like a case you could sue on, if you are rejected from a public place because a person who works there doesn't like you. Discrimination might be wrong word here, I give you that. Maybe slander or defamation? Pep (Slander - which incorporates defamation - is notoriously difficult to prove, but don't let us stop you enriching any number of lawyers.) _____________________
Hypocrite lecteur, — mon semblable, — mon frère!
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Hugh Helendale
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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11-25-2009 03:06
Wow. Seriously, I'm not thinking about suing anyone here.
Just wanted to know what kind of powers sim owners have, and my question was answered. No need to start picking part my posts word by word. My reference to a public place in SL vs. RL was based on where I live and I wanted to know how different they are in SL. A club without an entrance fee would be a public or a semi-public place (at least where I live) and should allow entrance to anyone who doesn't go against the "rules" there. And I would be very surprised to find out that a rule of "If our DJ doens't like you, you are denied entrance" would be plausible. If there's a RL lawyer reading this, please let me know if I'm wrong. |
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Pserendipity Daniels
Assume sarcasm as default
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 8,839
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11-25-2009 03:19
Wow. Seriously, I'm not thinking about suing anyone here. Just wanted to know what kind of powers sim owners have, and my question was answered. No need to start picking part my posts word by word. My reference to a public place in SL vs. RL was based on where I live and I wanted to know how different they are in SL. A club without an entrance fee would be a public or a semi-public place (at least where I live) and should allow entrance to anyone who doesn't go against the "rules" there. And I would be very surprised to find out that a rule of "If our DJ doens't like you, you are denied entrance" would be plausible. If there's a RL lawyer reading this, please let me know if I'm wrong. Pep ("My DJ's brother-in-law's dog doesn't like the way you smell" would be "plausible" in this context.) _____________________
Hypocrite lecteur, — mon semblable, — mon frère!
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Eclectic Wingtips
Registered User
Join date: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 795
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11-25-2009 03:29
Wow. Seriously, I'm not thinking about suing anyone here. Just wanted to know what kind of powers sim owners have, and my question was answered. No need to start picking part my posts word by word. My reference to a public place in SL vs. RL was based on where I live and I wanted to know how different they are in SL. A club without an entrance fee would be a public or a semi-public place (at least where I live) and should allow entrance to anyone who doesn't go against the "rules" there. And I would be very surprised to find out that a rule of "If our DJ doens't like you, you are denied entrance" would be plausible. If there's a RL lawyer reading this, please let me know if I'm wrong. I am not a RL lawyer but i would argue that you ARE wrong. Land which is owed by someone whether in RL or SL has the right to refuse entry to ANYONE they like. Public land by definition in RL is that which is owned by the relevent goverment, putting that into an SL context that is land owned by LL. Of course there could be cases of discrimination in RL if a venue was discriminating on the bases of race, gender etc. However even that is not clear cut. If the sole purpose of the venue is to be set aside for a particular group (say Women) then they can actually have a legal right to discriminate in regards to hiring and to entry to a place without reparcussion _____________________
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Hugh Helendale
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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11-25-2009 03:30
Ah, so you are compounding your problems of comprehension by confusing rl with sl? It has been previously conclusively demonstrated that if you have the wrong size of tail, or don't speak in a prescribed fashion, you can be banned by the sim owner or *anyone* that he/she has delegated that power to. Pep ("My DJ's brother-in-law's dog doesn't like the way you smell" would be "plausible" in this context.) No, I'm not confusing SL with RL. I'm trying to UNDERSTAND how things work in SL by COMPARING to RL, which I would think is a logical thing to do since humans tend to comprehend things through examples in a context that they are used to. Since I have conclusively stated that my question was answered, you don't need to bother telling me what I already know (ie. that sim owners have the powers). If you instead want to have a conversation about things related to the topic feel welcome to contribute. |
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Pserendipity Daniels
Assume sarcasm as default
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 8,839
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11-25-2009 03:40
No, I'm not confusing SL with RL. I'm trying to UNDERSTAND how things work in SL by COMPARING to RL, which I would think is a logical thing to do since humans tend to comprehend things through examples in a context that they are used. Pep ( . . . but not, I hope, xcite attachments; this is a PG forum) _____________________
Hypocrite lecteur, — mon semblable, — mon frère!
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Innula Zenovka
Registered User
Join date: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,825
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11-25-2009 03:44
In RL, as in SL, I am perfectly entitled to refuse to allow someone in my club because I don't like him. I'm not allowed to discriminate against him because of his gender, ethnicity or whatever, but I'm certainly allowed to discriminate against him because he once upset the DJ's sister.
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Hugh Helendale
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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11-25-2009 03:44
I shall wait with bated breath, then, for any further questions from you about teleporting and flying . . . Pep ( . . . but not, I hope, xcite attachments; this is a PG forum) Oh you are a funny one. Thank you for the laugh. No hard feelings and try to remember to breath before you turn blue. |
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Hugh Helendale
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 17
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11-25-2009 03:46
In RL, as in SL, I am perfectly entitled to refuse to allow someone in my club because I don't like him. I'm not allowed to discriminate against him because of his gender, ethnicity or whatever, but I'm certainly allowed to discriminate against him because he once upset the DJ's sister. Okay, thank you. I'm not 100% convinced this is the case where I live, though. I might ask around for curiosity. |
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Pserendipity Daniels
Assume sarcasm as default
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 8,839
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11-25-2009 03:55
Oh you are a funny one. Thank you for the laugh. No hard feelings and try to remember to breath before you turn blue. Pep ("Yeth, and I'm not even thixteen".) _____________________
Hypocrite lecteur, — mon semblable, — mon frère!
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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11-25-2009 04:33
Okay, thank you. I'm not 100% convinced this is the case where I live, though. I might ask around for curiosity. Here is some information: http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/restaurants-right-to-refuse-service.html We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to You (Kinky Friedman, Rick Goldberg, J. Maizel) While traveling through the Lone Star State I lost my lunch before I ate, It happened in a pull-ahead cafe. Yahoo! I felt my bones begin to crunch I saw my name on the businessman's lunch And the neck who owned the place stepped up to say: Hey buddy, are you blind, Say, partner, can't you read the sign? We reserve the right to refuse service to you, Take your business back to Walgreen's, Have you tried your local zoo ? You smell just like a communist, You come on through just like a Jew, We reserve the right to refuse service to you. Well, I walked on in to my House of God Congregation on the nod, Just chosen folks are doing their weekly thing. Hear, O Israel, yes indeed, My book was backwards, couldn't read, But I got a good rise when I heard that Rabbi sing, Boruch atoh Adonoi, What the hell are you doing back there, boy ? We reserve the right to refuse services to you, Your friends are all on welfare You call yourself a Jew? You need your ticket and your tie To zip your prayers on through, We reserve the right to refuse services unto you. Life from Laos and Cambodia No more tears tonight they showed ya The latest old war movies on TV. You know it's bound to escalate So go and turn on channel eight, Watch channel seven border channel three. Well, I won't mind your tanks and jets and jeeps And speaking on behalf of all my fellow creeps: We reserve the right to refuse service to you, Right, face, forward, move And get the children, too. Let Saigons be bygones, Don't you blow this world in two. We reserve the right to refuse service to you. Well, it's just my luck that God's a Texan One big sonbitchin' Anglo-Saxon, Some crazy tall Norwegian bore Just to help my body shipped air-freight From Texas to the Pearly Gate Just ring the bell and leave me at the door. I'll be somewhere over Jordan swinging low, I'll hear them tape-recorded angels in lifelike stereo Singing, We reserve the right to refuse service to you, Take your business back to Walgreen's, Have you tried your local zoo ? Our quota's filled for this year On singing Texas Jews, We reserve the right to refuse service to you. _____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,253
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11-25-2009 07:13
To me this sounds totally wrong and in real life would be close to a court case based on discrimination. SECOND Life is not real life. Are the sim owners omnipotent in this sense and there is no rules and regulations about this? The rules are FOR it. A land owner can ban anyone they please, for any or for no reason at all. |
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Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
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11-25-2009 07:21
lol!
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Treasure Ballinger
Virtual Ability
Join date: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,745
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11-25-2009 07:32
SECOND Life is not real life. The rules are FOR it. A land owner can ban anyone they please, for any or for no reason at all. Or because you are wearing purple shoes and they hate purple. Really, for anything at all or nothing.........they don't even have to tell you anything, you can just suddenly find yourself on the ban list, as you are tp'd home, or 'kicked' out of the parcel. |
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Joshooah Lovenkraft
Just Joshin'
Join date: 28 Dec 2007
Posts: 1,376
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11-25-2009 08:16
As everyone else said, a sim owner can ban/eject you without reason. One thing I might add is that you mentioned your ban was from an officer with that delegated responsibility. I guess you could IM the owner of the actual land and state your case as it may be something that they should be aware of if an officer is ejecting/banning without adequate cause or based on a personal vendetta. For instance if a club owner gets wind of one their officers getting ban happy and creates an atmosphere they don't feel is pleasant for its visitors, it might be something they should know about. Then again, the owner might just agree with their officer and do nothing and you have little recourse. It's a big grid out there so I would just find another place to hang out.
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Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
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11-25-2009 08:20
I guess if I were to start banning avatars on the basis of the race, gender or nationality of the account holders who operate the avatars I'd run into legal difficulties pretty quickly . . . Frankly, Innula, I doubt that you would. Does anyone know of a case where a ban against someone on the basis of, say, race (represented or real) was actually overturned? Or resulted in trouble from LL? _____________________
Scylla Rhiadra
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Lee Ponzu
What Would Steve Do?
Join date: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,770
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11-25-2009 08:28
Yeah.. i can ban anyone i like from my sims. I guess if I were to start banning avatars on the basis of the race, gender or nationality of the account holders who operate the avatars I'd run into legal difficulties pretty quickly but otherwise I can restrict access however I want. I doubt that civil rights legislation covers avatars. _____________________
So many monkeys, so little Shakespeare.
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