live music my arse

There's one way to find out - offer it to a live music venue or three and see what they say. Even offer it for free just to see how it goes down.

THAT^^

My hubby and I saw the stage production of the musical Chicago at the Moulin Rouge. Their dance routines were amazing consider how sl is. The customes were great as well as the stage props.

Was the music live? I don't know and I didn't care. Those folks put in a lot of time and effort to present a truly wonderful show.

hehehe. For some reason I immediately thought of them, the performer, adding people yelling things like "you suck" and/or "get a real job".

Well, I'm just saying.....if you want to know what the story is....don't be afraid to ask him. Just send an IM after the show, and say "Were you singing live?.....Do you know any of these people?.....Was this a good crowd or a bad one?......Do you like this venue?......Where do you usually perform?......What's your favorite venue?......Who is your favorite musician here?....Do you see all the gesture spam, while you're singing?......Does it bug you?.....Is there always one idiot in the crowd who asks for Freebird?....."

Just ask.

I'm going to send you a list later today, of musicians who will have an entirely different experience for you.

There are several electronic band in SL. Including such acts as Torban Asp. I can't recall if Komuso Tokugawa sings as well, but I do know that there are some songs that are more instrument playing than singing. There is a virtual band also. I can't recall if the Virtual Band is the one I'm thinking of. Saw them in person, wacky weird avatars, science fiction setting, no singing. XanderNichting Writer plays an electric violin.


Oh, and I recall mention of "like to hear more than one" or something like that. I've been to live events where two acts play together. One streams their playing to the other and the other streams it to SL. They can be continents apart (and I recall now that there is a band that plays together that actually are continents apart, the band members).

Maximillion Kleene and Dolmere Talamasca have played together. And Vienna James and Maximillion Kleene.

I want to expand a bit on that. Not because it's much to do with this thread, but because I want to

What is a musician? In one sense, anyone who is capable of making music is a musician. In another sense, and to my mind, musicians are those who *create* music, while those who play what other people have created aren't the real musicians. They can incorporate some musicianship into the pieces, such as their own interpretations, which would make them more of musicians than those who simply play it strictly by the dots. In that sense, groups who simply play copies of popular songs, as best they can, aren't the real musicians, whether they play it all live or with some backing tracks.

Singers aren't really musicians at all, unless they create their own stuff, or create their own arrangements. They are performers of other people's musucal creations. Good, expressive singers are more akin to actors than to musicians. I don't know if still true or not but, in the UK, singers could get Equity cards but instrumentalists couldn't. (Equity is of the actors' union here.) So, in general, singers are performers/entertainers rather than musicians, and many of them don't mind backing tracks at all as they still get to do what they do, which is sing/entertain.

Not everyone who is a musician plays an instrument though. I know some singers who do not play instruments and due to the difficulty of finding someone to play with combined with the logistics of setting up for two people instead of one, using backing tracks is the only option. Does that make them less of a musician? If you've ever heard Nina Brandenburg sing, she IS a musician, not just a singer. She improvises and makes songs her own, and Amy Winehouse WISHES she could sing Me And Mr. Jones as well as Nina.

The thing about backing tracks is there are good ones and bad ones. While I prefer the thought of a live performance being 100% live without backing tracks, to some it's the only option. And there are some really good singers out there who do this and do it well. Nina is performing today at noon, SL time, and I highly recommend her. Shoot me an IM in world and I'll send a LM for anyone who's interested.

I agree with some of this and disagree with others. If a singer just sings what was written, by say, Gershwin, I would say that he/she is not a musician. We're using labels pretty heavily here, but hang in here with me. Frank Sinatra, as much as most of us love him, was a singer. He basically sang what was given to him, and had top flight bands behind him. Billie Holiday or Sarah Vaughan, however, were musicians. The musicians that played behind them called them musicians, because they took an active part in interpreting the music, as well as helping to arrange the song with the musicians in the band. They both took liberties with the music, as any good jazz musician would do, and improvised on the spot. They were both true musicians. (Sarah Vaughan was also an accomplished pianist.)

I think maybe a better way of distinguishing would be to use entertainer and artist, instead of musician and singer. The reason being, is that there are musicians who are more entertainers than artists. They can play notes they are supposed to, but are not necessarily creating anything new. Much like how we are describing some singers in SL.

What's a guitar got to do with anything?

FWIW, for an idea on where I'm coming from, here's a project I've put a lot of effort into but never released for public use...

I've put together a database of about 300 venues (mostly live music, but also some clubs that appear to have actual humans) and almost 500 performers (mostly singers/musicians, but also some noteworthy DJs). I have a bot that can monitor when people are at these venues and can cross-reference hot spots with event listings, so it can also publish a list of who's performing where at the moment. It can recognize names and venues in event listings, including common mis-spellings and nicknames, and it can automatically accept places with a history of high-quality events and reject places that are thinly-disguised shops or casinos who game search, traffic and the events listings. It can recognize from traffic data that unpublished events are happening, and from a history can even predict when unpublished events will happen in the future.

In short, it's an alternative to finding things in the spam-laden events list or in the gamed-to-death in-world search. It's a place to find where people are hanging out *right now*.

So, as you might guess, I'm not new to the live music or clubbing scene. I've been to hundreds. I know how real humans act in SL, and I can tell when there aren't any present.

I wasn't born yesterday.

The problems with this project are...

1) It's a huge effort (full-time) and there is little chance of monetizing it enough to come anywhere near minimum wage. In fact, it'd be a challenge to monetize it without spoiling its impartiality. It'd be a challenge to monetize it enough to cover its own expenses, let alone compensating me for my time.

2) Good venues don't list events far enough in advance to publish a coming events list. Many of them don't use the events list at all.

3) Bot farms continue to find new ways to suck the life out of everything in SL. Re-visiting the venues in my database is a depressing waste of time. I really do think SL is dying.

4) Like everything in SL, how do I make people aware that this thing even exists? Only LL control something that everyone sees: the viewer (and also the SL website). Without LL support this project won't get enough viewers to be effective or financially viable in time to make it worth running.

So, while I had planned to start running this soon, the reality is that I have real-world bills to pay, so I just don't have time.

I don't think we disagree on any part, Crighton. My bit about, "... or create their own arrangements" was meant to cover what you described about Billie Holiday and Sarah Vaughan. I hadn't thought of jazz singers when I wrote that post, but some of them are real musicians in the sense that I tried to describe, because they create music with their voices - their voices often become instruments, which they use to create music on-the-fly.

There was an english classical piano player in the Algarve (Portugal) when I was there some years ago. He told a friend of mine that all the players around there weren't musicians, as distinct from him who was a musician. As far as I know, the first part was true but I couldn't judge the second part because I never heard him play. If he just played by the dots then, to my way of thinking, he wasn't a real musician - he just copied real musicians.

There have been two periods in my life when I was a professional singer, each lasting several years, and each ending due to other things - family and such. The second period ended in 1998. I never thought of myself as a musician by any stretch of the imagination. I could make music but that was all. I can play the piano, organ (including bass pedals), saxaphones, clarinet, guitar and 5-string banjo, but I never considered myself to be a real musician. What I *was* was an entertainer, and I was very good at that because I was good at involving the people rather than just standing there singing, as some do (the singing itself wasn't my strongest point ). So I'm not just making up some opinions as I go along in this thread. My views are based on years of actually doing it.

My partner is straight up live. He plays his guitar and he plays piano to. I cant mention his name here, cause its against tos..
anhow...
There are to many who are live and real to waste my time at shows where they dont.

Very rarely do I even listen to karoke, with the exception of 2 or 3 that have a fantastic voice. And I cant STAND being dumped in the middle of a mall and have to find my way to the music!! 99% of the time I will leave.

As to live tracks, I really dont mind them....


I do Not like bots... nope not at all....


and I also wonder why when you go to live music shows NO ONE EVER talks but the occasional hostes spamming her or his welcome gestures... Although sometimes I am guilty of this as I tend to work in photoshop at them....

I was at grace's show the other day no one spoke, so much so even grace noticed it and made a comment you all must be tied up in IM's lol.

I think most preformers like the chatter of people.. They can gauge peoples reactions to songs they do and if the chatter is uplifting it puts them in a happy place to... So Im not sure why so many dont talk during shows.

Although chatter can also distract... But wh ocares if the preformer giggles occasionally... You know its live eh?

I'm sorry, but I just have to say it . . sorry


I really don't want to hear live music from Anya's arse.

500? I only have 434. Don't think any of them are DJ's. Well, I know one sometimes DJ's and says they are DJ'ing, and sometimes performs live.

http://exploringvirtualworlds.wikidot.com/music-acts

I've been lazy with the music venue database. Mostly because they change so often, few remain operating for years at a time (or months). I only listed 138 music venues on my SL music wiki.

I think a good compromise is the performer presenting the show live, but playing his / her / their pre-recorded tracks, as long as they say that's what they're doing. Especially if they've gone to the trouble of recording all the tracks specially for an SL concert.

You can mention the name as long as it isn't negative. I assume you do not wish to slam him or negatively refer to him.

One of the reasons I show up at live music events as a raccoon is because that is almost always going to get people to talk.

I've been to concerts of 99 (that was lag city), and concerts of 1. It is very odd when a well known performer is singing at a event listed time and venue, and he ends up playing only for you. Luckily I was able to drag in some people, but that was odd.

I hear a lot of the tiny's complain that its harder for them at shows because no one ever thinks to accomidate for them.. dances places to sit etc.

I myself sometimes go as a dragon, of course she is huge.. and I usually get omg stop laggin us... lol a few just ask me to stay in the back so I dont block anyones view... (cam cam cam) anyway... I love it when people come to shows in furries or tinys or boxes..
its cool, cause face it in RL you would be kicked out of a place lol

Yup.

So, Valdimir Horowitz wasn't a musician because he didn't write? Gimme a break.

Have you ever heard tracks that are computers "reading" music and playing it literally? What even mediocre musicians play is far different, and usually far better. Even those who don't think they're interpreting, are.

I disagree. I know a lot of great cover bands. While I play and record original music, I'd be tickled pink to have the musicianship of many cover artists. It's a talent, and shouldn't be dismissed. I get the impression that you're not a musician, or you'd know better.

WHAT? They're the *ultimate* musicians. The voice is the most articulate, sensitive, expressive, and difficult to master of all the instruments.

The primary difference between vocalists and instrumentalists is that vocalists have their instrument built-in. They don't have the luxury of getting a better one. However, just as a great guitarist can make a poor guitar sound amazing, a great vocalist with a "poor instrument" can still make great music. (I'm a weak vocalist with a poor instrument, but I manage to squeak by at times.)

Don't confuse musicianship with authorship. The world is full of truly amazing musicians (singers or instrumentalists) who don't write music. Of course, every performer is unique, as is every performance. Yes, you get extra points for originality, but it's foolish to dismiss the skill and sensitivity required even to imitate a good performance as "not what a musician does". This doesn't fit with the definition of the word that is used by musicians, in the industry, as amateurs or pros, or by the general public.

So, while there's a distinction to be made here, labeling it "musicianship" is misleading and pointless. It's callled "creativity". Yes, the best musicians are the creative ones. But there are amazing musicians who aren't particularly creative.

Maybe, but that would be self-defeating for me as I *have* to play my material regularly just to keep it fresh in my mind. Maybe I'm weird but I don't like sitting around listening to my recordings, let alone DJ'ing them. I prefer to be either playing, composing, recording or else listening to something other than my own work as I already hear enough of my stuff!

As for people's observation about attendance [and bots] at some shows, I'll do my shows even if there's no-one present and treat them as open rehearsals.

Yeah, but I just haven't mastered the ability to play keyboards, guitar, bass, and drums at the same time. OK, I can't play drums at all.

And performing with BTs is not merely "playing DJ", because at least one track is a live performance.

[ETA: I guess that is what Conifer was referring to after all, so never mind!]

I have a bit of a solo act, which I've done for small "gigs" as favors. I don't use backing tracks. But if I were to do SL music, I'd want to do a wider range of material, and I'd use backing tracks for the material that's not suitable for solo performance (like the one I posted above).

That said, I have more respect for those who can pull off a wide range of material without resorting to them.

Backing tracks are a compromise. My hat's off to uncompromising artists. But I put no shame on those who do, in SL. In RL, I'd tend to move on, except in unusual cases. Still no shame, just little interest.

Well, since you are talking about my venue, my gig last night, let me please answer! I notice that you showed up about 1 1/2 hours into a 2 hour show. Many of us were chatting in private IM by then. Sorry you were so bored! I noticed you didn't say a peep in local chat.

Now, if you showed up nearer to the beginning of the event, you might have seen a LOT of conversation in local chat. at 75% of the way though the event, a lot of us (me included) were in private IM with our honeys!

Gwampa Lomu

Romantic music, perhaps?

I won't go through it bit by bit - you'll be pleased to know

You obviously hadn't read my later post when you wrote it. It's *because* I've spent years as a professional singer/instrumentalist/entertainer that I arrived at the opinions I posted (not semi-pro - my livelihood). I don't insist that everyone shares them though but, to my way of thinking, they are true.

In the first period when I was a pro, I sang, played the organ, including bass pedals, and I had a drummer (who couldn't sing, which was a shame because I love to harmonise). It was 100% live but even back then, I never considered myself to be a real musician. I'd already decided that the real musicians are not those who can make music by basically copying other people's works, but those who create the works. It's not black and white, as was pointed out about jazz singers in particular, and there are other overlapping people, but, as one who has made his livelihood at it for years, it's my general view. From your point of view, and in one sense, I am a musician but, from my point of view, and in another sense, I am not.

So, Gwampa....did anyone request Freebird?

OK, you're free to invent your own definitions for words. Just don't be surprised when it causes confusion.

I find it more fruitful to find a word that captures the distinction you're getting at, rather than changing the definition of one that means something else.

I do, however, make a similar distinction, "real musicians" being those who are head-and-shoulders above me in ability. Which is a lot of them ...