Solutions Against Junkyards

I don't want them to 'look after' anything. I want the same rights that island buyers have today. I want to be able to buy land that's free from junk and which I can control, but it's gotta be smaller ones than the islands available today.

Do you all really think it's good that the only choice today, apart from buying mainland, is to buy an island of 16 acres that costs USD $295 a month plus VAT above that if you're european? Who are really restricting freedom here, me or you? I'd be happy if there was islands as small as eighths or quarters of the islands available today or why not from 512 sqm up to a full sim?

Unfortunately the only thing you can buy from LL that's smaller than an island, is mainland. Grab a whole mainland sim, or half of one. Line the edges with tall trees. Reduce your draw distance to 64m. Presto! You have an island of your very own land that nobody can tell you what to do with, and you won't have to see anybody else's world or imagination.

Unfortunately it sounds like you have something rather specific in mind as to what you want, but what you want doesn't exist. So you're either going to have to make a concession or two, or do without.

To use a metaphor, I want a vehicle with the cargo capacity of a cube van, the fuel efficiency of a Prius, and the offroad capability of a tank. And frankly, I want it to be amphibious too. No matter how much I want that vehicle, it's not going to happen. I'll have to chose what attributes I want the most, and give up the ones that I can't get. Should I complain to the Auto Industry that they are "Restricting My Freedom" to own my dream vehicle?

I don't think LL will ever make smaller islands, simply because they've created a world that's split into 65536m regions. If you want the same rights and abilities as an island owner, then buy an island. If that's too much land for you, divvy it up and lease or rent the bits you don't need to folks who share your vision.



I don't think the 'restricting of freedom' argument holds any water, really. Nobody is restricting your freedom. You are free to 'play' by the rules and technological limitations that LL has established, and if you don't like the rules and technological limitations, you are free to leave. But complaining that LL are restricting your freedoms because they won't change the architecture of their world to suit you, is not a sound argument. And suggesting that *I* am restricting your freedom because LL won't change the architecture of their world to suit you, is simply absurd.

-Atashi

All of this was a very pessimistic point of view. You mean all is set forever and nothing can ever change, it will never be technically possible although it prolly already is today? I can just say OMG to that. You suggest again that I should buy a whole sim and wall myself in with trees. I neither want a full sim nor any walls!!!

Read this question again that I wrote above and answer it instead!

Do you all really think it's good that the only choice today, apart from buying mainland, is to buy an island of 16 acres that costs USD $295 a month plus VAT above that if you're european? Who are really restricting freedom here, me or you? I'd be happy if there was islands as small as eighths or quarters of the islands available today or why not from 512 sqm up to a full sim?

If a full sim or island today uses one server capacity it's likely that 4 or 8 smaller islands would use one server together as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this should be reasonable and it would also be very popular among the residents and bring LL even more profit

Again with the freedom 'argument'. Yes that's right. Me and 'the man' are trying to keep you down.

As for the first part of your reply -- let's be specific. Is it possible in the realm of all technology around the world, computing power, programming ability? Of course it is. 256m x 256m was probably an arbitrary decision to begin with. Round up some programmers, nab a few Lindens or ex-Lindens, and build your own 3d virtual world with variable-sized regions.

Is it possible to change or make variable the size of regions with Second Life, without breaking everything? No. No, it is not. This is not my opinion, and this is not another one of my various efforts to restrict your freedom and keep you under my oppressive thumb.

If you spend time reading the Knowledge Base and the Wiki and pretty much everything else you can get your hands on, you will find out that there are real limitations on what can and cannot be done within Second Life as it exists. Regions are 256m by 256m and it would be a awful lot of work to change that. Work that would be better spent in a lot of elsewheres. Not to mention, we're talking about a platform that is so complicated and interconnected now that they can't release two upgrades in a row without some serious show-stopping bugs getting out there.

Anyhow, I am sorry that my arguments, opinions, and the facts I have mentioned, don't agree with your view of how the world should be. I apologize for not being specific about the technological limitations in my earlier post, I had assumed that I didn't need to incude a rider that said limitations were 'within the current structure of SL as we know it' etc etc.

And, all the best of luck to you in your quest. Start a JIRA asking them for different-sized private islands. Ask people to vote on it.

-Atashi

p.s. all the editing makes it hard for me to keep up with the quotes

They do make smaller islands that take up a fraction of a server (a quarter server in fact). They're called Void or Open-Space sims. You have to buy them in 4-packs because they are four to a server, and they won't split them among owners because that would mean one owner could f**k-up the server impacting the other 3 owners. This way, if you f**k up a quarter-server, you're only hurting yourself. Additionally, these small islands are *still* 65536m per mini-island, because that region-size is hard-coded into SL. The only 'unreasonable' limitation SL have placed on these, is that you have to own a 'regular' sim first. There is no technological reason for this, that I'm aware of.

There's no technological way to get rid of ugly builds. Any rule you try to implement like this will only make it harder for people to build nice things, not make it impossible to build ugly things.

Personally, I'd rather not restrict building options but enhance ignore options. How sweet would it be if you could click on someone's land, pick "Ignore", and poof, all their stuff disappears? How sweet would it be if this could be scripted so that land owners could give their visitors a "Beautify" button to click on (visitor clicks it, perhaps goes through a series of permissions requests, and then all the ugly stuff disappears)? How long would ad farms stay around if we had this?



Nah. Having neighbors isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just let me ignore the "bad" ones.

--Hugsy

The thing is, Anniella, that LL don't like to have their servers half-sold. Yes, they could split a sim into 4 mini-islands and sell them one by one, but then they might not sell the whole thing. Their way of doing it instead is to put out one big island, sell it to a landlord, and then they can split it into mini-islands surrounded by water, walls and trees if they want to.

I understand your desire to buy only from LL but remember that LL is setting itself up as being the platform company. If you want to buy your Coke directly from the Coca-Cola Corporation, you'll get the freshest possible Coke, but they won't give you ice, lemon, or little umbrellas, because they have resellers who are better placed market-wise to do that.

I don't agree with the above at all. Buying or in fact 'renting' from an estate owner is nothing for me. They can't bring me any lemons or umbrellas any sweeter than I can myself. I always want to be in total control of my land, as far as you can be 'in control' anyway and I'd never in my life 'buy' anything from an estate owner.

Read this post and you'll understand a part of this:

/142/c8/219837/1.html

To me it's now just a matter of who's gonna provide smaller islands or land plots with greater space between the parcels, LL or someone else? The one who does it will win the residents. 16 acres and USD $ 295 a month in tier fees, is out of the question for most, so the one who wants 'most', the majority of the residents, has to provide them with what they want, not what a fraction of the residents want. That's how the market works everywhere. Sure I could buy a whole island and lease it to others and just keep the part I want myself as someone suggested, but that would give me tremendous time consuming work and maintenance that I'm not the slightest interested in as I don't want, or can spend full time in this world. All of you who spend full time here and own one or more sims/islands, it's really not relevant what you think about this matter as these suggestions I have don't concern you in any way. This concerns the average, vaste majority of the residents here that should have the option to buy other types of land than they are offered today.

bought my "firstland" way back when, and it has been a lovely mainland sim the whole time...yeah, occaisionally one of the landowners around me has sold and someone new has moved in, but the entire sim is quite nice and decently built and there are no junkyards...a neighbor to the north occaisionall has a plane floating in the air, but them i have my skybox at like 650 meters when i waqnt privacy, and my land below is basically just beachfront.

there is a decent sized chunk for sale on the eastern border of the sim...pinastri if you do the search...its a great neighborhood, fronts linden waterway and when i am usually on, 830ish-10ish pst there is usually just myself and kitten on the whole place.

the problem i think is to find land for sale on older, more nicely developed sims you can't search for it by simname ...so you basically have to go to them or look for the yellow spots in the map.

If all you want are smaller estate sizes I can see how that would be nice. Unfortunately LL already have their hands full managing the land they have. My guess is they use the land sizes they have as they offer a reasonable compromise between size and performance at the server end. If they had to keep track of a lot of small islands I could see a lot of technical problems popping up.

The other problem is more community oriented. If everyone could own their own private island I think you would see a mainland dystopia covered with ads and a zillion little islands ringed with barbed wire and "no trespassing" signs. Communities don't function well when no one communes.

SJ

Nooo... that doesn't make life perfect, it just makes it full of different things!
If we all had the same views, tastes and opinions, then that would be perfect.. there'd be sooo much of what we love, and nothing that we don't. Think of all the things that annoy you, they wouldn't exist! Sounds good to me!

It's like the expression 'It takes all sorts...'
No it doesn't, we just happen to HAVE all sorts!

Actually, it might not be a bad idea for LL to experiment a bit with LL-owned "estate"-type properties - IN ADDITION to the existing Mainland and private islands. The problem here is not that Anniella Winx wants something different in SL (who doesn't, in some sense?), but that she sems to want a one-size-fits-all solution to be imposed on everybody that happens to be tailored to perfectly fit Anniella Winx. And to accuse people of restricting her freedom when they disagree with her wish to restrict theirs. Separate the two issues -- LL "estates" and "Anniella Wants"-- and we might get somewhere with the valid issue.

LOL, really? When did I tell anyone to erase any of the land types LL offers today? I don't want one solution that fits all. In fact I want all the land types that excist today to continue to excist and be an option for anyone to choose but ABOVE that I want some MORE TYPES of land to choose from than the types available today. What's wrong with adding that? Again, in what way have I ever wanted to restrict anybody's freedom? I think you should read my posts a little more thoroughly!

I still think it's wrong that the only choice today, apart from buying mainland, is to buy an island of 16 acres that costs USD $295 a month plus VAT. I think SL should be a possible hobby for the average Joe too and I know that LL would profit so much more if they made it possible for people to buy their own little island for a reasonable fee. Just imagine how popular this choice would be! Sometimes lower prices and smaller items can be more profitable than high priced huge items. This rule applies in the real world too, just the same way.

Umm...in your Original Post?

Actually, they can, because they can provide you with a quarter-sim area, set up to look like an island and bordered all around by protected land and view.

Yes, if a landlord is unscrupulous you can suffer a great deal of harm. I do understand the concern. But if it was as simple as that then there would be no landlords on SL. They do offer a service, sometimes a valuable service, to cancel out the increased risk.



Many landlords already *do* provide this. The "majority of residents" you're talking about are mostly happy to rent from landlords.

Again, I don't want to rent from a landlord and will never do. I'm a landlord myself so it's out of the question.

Woah, I have some very happy high-paying tenants that live in your 'fly zone' in what I, and they, think are very attractive hi-rise hotels. I could bulldoze all of it and build 1.5 sims worth of nature preserve and put out a couple of lame tip jars. I just hope visitors will drop 1000 L a week in them.

Yeah, I have buildings in the fly zone too. Doesn't prevent me from haveing ideas of improvements. As long as I'm not the type that settle with things as they are and use the 'impossible' word, but always look for improvements and new aspects and ideas, I'm good.

LL is Coca Cola Company.
The island is the coke.
The ability to buy a small portion and no have ugly builds is the umbrella or lemons.

Get over it, you choice is simple, buy mainland and enjoy the chaos, or buy an island, or rent on an island and enjoy the "peace".

The entire system is setup for 256m x 256m, there is no facility to do otherwise, and more than likely it would cause a lot of work to be done to cope with it.

Yes I know restrict your freedom, blah blah blah. You could get ripped off? Welcome to the Real World (said tongue in cheek)! Almost any transaction you do with someone could be a rip off, you need to do your research first.

Oh and yes I hate ulgy builds, clubs next door, apartments blocking my view, but you know what? I lived through all of them and still in the same sim. (the last club lasted 1 week actually open)

One final question, who are you going to buy/rent from when LL get out of the land market, as I think they will eventually?

Freedom is messy.

New people come, build at their novice skill level, and often become more skilled. Sometimes they disappear and leave half-finished builds or have different taste than me. That's ok.

Buy land in an area of established builds that you like. Your neighbors would benefit if what you build is attractive and you'd benefit from their stablility.

1. I am pro freedom, more freedom than today, more land types to choose from.

2. All tell me to buy land on mainland or to rent. I already own land on mainland but would like to have land on an island. But I won't ever rent from a landlord on an estate island.

3. Estate land is too expensive to buy for most, a whole island costs USD $ 295 per month plus VAT and it's very hard to get that income from the island once you own it as also lag and traffic limits decreases the possiblity to earn the same money back to pay that tier. This means that if you buy an island you get a hell of a lot of work and maintenance to do for no profit at all or very little profit if you're lucky. You will be happy if you get an income enough to pay the tier. Not all of us want or can spend fulltime in SL either. Therefore I see no reason to buy an island of 16 acres today and I just won't do that. I won't rent a part of one either as I want to buy and not rent.

4. I'd like to see smaller islands that cost less and have fewer prims for those of us who'd like to buy land and are tired of mainland junk.

5. There's nothing as 'established builds' on mainland. I've had land on the oldest continents of mainland, in regions you'd call established. Once in a while people move anyway and a person on his first level of building skills comes and places some rotating junk in front of my view that also throws particles all over the place and makes land value drop down to a very low level. I just don't want to have this type of land anymore and I just can't accept the constant money loss you get if you buy mainland. I want something new, try to understand that. It's not a threat against the mainland we have today, I just want some more types of land added. I'm not suggesting that we'd delete the mainland of today.

Avion, I was merely expressing my like of the idea, not proposing it
I have no qualms with someone building and utilising the space. Someone else touched on my point; red banlines that stretch from an apparently desolate ground into the sky with no evidence of usage. Have you ever got stuck in a traffic jam on a road where everyone's had to merge into one lane to go past some cones .. and when you drive through the bottleneck, there's nothing there, not even a spillage on the road? Same thing.

I agree with you, Anniella. I don't get this "buy on established mainland" thing, because to me it looks like the more established it is, the worse it is. My 1st property was on the oldest continent. It was pretty bad to start with, and just got worse over time until I couldn't deal with it anymore and just sold it.

SE Nautilus, where I run my business now, started out as a paradise, and just gets worse by the week. Once one parcel goes to the dogs, others nearby give up and dump their land until entire regions turn into "toybox land." I own a big enough chunk of it that I'm slightly resistant to the blighting domino effect, but it's still very frustrating, and I feel for people who just want a small plot to live on. I wouldn't buy one.

There's no reason LL couldn't start releasing zoned residential land. They could make all kinds of rules and just appoint moderators to enforce them. Would that be highly flawed? of course! But believe me, there are boatloads of people who would be willing to give up a lot of freedom to purchase land like that.

I also really like the idea of selling small, individual parcels that are somehow not in view of any other parcels, whether they be islands or whatever it takes.



No biggie, bilbo -- I just can't help but have a knee-jerk reaction to any perceived anti-hi-rise sentiments.

Did anyone else think this thread was about banning "Sanford and Son" reruns in SL?

I think I can imagine a market for non-Estate parcels--sub-sim sized and tier-paid to LL--that permit the owner greater separation from neighbors, more of the Estate Tools, the ability to build and deeply terraform up to some inter-parcel buffer zones, and much larger minimum parcel sizes. But we should consider what this really would mean, to see if it's a real market or not.

One technical constraint that applies here is that there's a tremendous lot of code that really relies on the grid being divided up in 256x256m chunks in a neat array, assigned to individual sim processing. At this point, that would be really really difficult to change, so somehow LL would have to get a sim worth of tier out of however many mini-islands will fit in a 256m square.

The open-space sims are a possible help here, but they're also illustrative in how they're currently sold by LL: the fact that you can't buy less than 4 of them suggests that LL really doesn't want to deal in small-scale land management. For any modified land-ownership plan to get attention, I think, it would have to demonstrate how it would bring in more revenue to LL and/or reduce the operations and support costs, per sim. If mini-islands were attractive to a substantial market at, say, twice the mainland tier revenue without any substantial increase in support requirements, then this might get an airing.

So... say we take an open-space sim, divide it up into sixteen 4096s, and then take half of each 4096 for inter-parcel buffer space, nicely arranged somehow. Then sell the resulting 2048s with some special provision that they can't be subdivided for resale. They'd each get 234 prims like a 1024 (to fit in the open-space primcount) but tiered as 2048s (to double the Linden tier per void sim). Is there a market for that?

Or, take a full-primmed sim, similarly divided, giving the full 4096 worth of prims to the 2048, and charging tier for 8192m2. Would that be more appealing?

If these offerings wouldn't have an eager market, then... is there some other arrangement that would be appealing and still worth LL's time to consider?

Just download the Viewer that lets you 'mute' the visibility of a parcel's objects. It only makes them 90% invisible, but it helps keep your mind off the eyesores.

http://ablewhitman.org/viewer/