How landcutters are still hurting the mainland

Nope. I never said that.

What I said was that *I* have worked with my neighbors, and in our cases, it has helped *us*. I also said that microparcels can be cut in such a way as to make your own land use less efficient, and in those cases, it needs to be addressed.

Whatever else you took from that is your own fabrication.

No, he's arguing something which isn't even being debated to score points with the rest of his assertions. Basically, a bona fide strawman. "Here! Look at this! This is wrong! Hence the rest of what I am going to say is also just as good!". Yes, we know. We know that all microparcels aren't bad.



For whom? I have been fighting this bullshit for almost a year now, and I certainly don't think or say that. Elanthius has a 16sqm on my mall's edge. Weedy still has a donut hole. I don't care, because when and if I am ready to have them moved, I know they will work with me to do so. Cutting a 16 isn't automatically a sign of extortion. However, checkerboarding a larger plot, and setting choice pieces for extortionate prices *IS*. It really isn't that hard to tell the abusive microplots from the non-abusive ones. I know, I have seen THOUSANDS of them in the last year.



*shrug* Isn't so much a matter of giving them power over me as a matter of doing what I feel I have to do to enjoy my Second Life. No different than for you, or Argent, or Phil, or anyone. I daresay my efforts not have been in vain, and I, for one, am glad I bothered to care enough to do something, rather than quit.

Absolutely. But not everyone has the patience and fortitude to ignore the inconveniences and often intentional aggravation.

It's like some people don't mind bad seams on texture clothes, whereas it drives others to distraction.

There's nothing to be done about poorly seamed clothing, but it doesn't too much matter: the only people potentially affected by it are the seller and the buyer. But that's not the situation in "land" as it's handled now. Rather, LL loses for these "bad seams": they get more abandoned land, fewer landowners tiering-up, and fewer new Premium customers for the Mainland product. Granted, that wouldn't be the case if every existing and potential Mainland owner would just ignore the messy seams, but that's a tough bit of re-education, as evidenced by the persistence of those high pricetags.

You like that word but it's not straw. I get the feeling you're just getting pissy at Phil because it's Phil.


And what you do, without doubt, fuels more cutting. You want to enjoy your Second Life that way, fine. Don't wait them out. But you haven't solved the greater problem. I don't see waiting them out as quitting. I see it as the long term solution based on market principles. You can't be extorted unless you buy in. People can try to hold their neighbors hostage but that only goes as far as the neighbors will allow it. If you ignore them, they eventually go away. Supply and demand. If they put up a structure or banline, they get AR'd and that too will go away.

Yes, we shall see. :)



I might be stretching the use of the term a bit to describe what I saw in your arguments, but here is my thinking:

A strawman argument is one you intentionally set up as either being easily refuted, or is not refutable, as it is not in dispute. Its intent is to act as a red herring, to distract people involved in the discussion to focus their attention on its shiny perfection (or its deplorable imperfection), rather than to the real points at hand. It also can serve to act as an edificial support to associated arguments, in order to bolster their strength. However, when it is called, the rest of the arguments leaning on it tend to fall from its removal as a form of support.

In this case, people are talking about microparcels and land cutting which is specifically odious, with examples. The strawman argument is that the discussion (and, though you are not misrepresenting a particular person's argument, you are of the general argument itself) is about all microparcels cutting being bad, and this is simply not true. You construe that, because people think that "bad" microparcel abuse should be acted on, that all microparcel *use* should be acted on, hence:



That simply isn't the case. People are making statements on their experiences, and if you want evidence, I can send you folders of screenshots to demonstrate it.



The "personal story" part was to illustrate that it is, in fact, your own "wild overstatements" which are incorrect. We aren't just "overreacting" over a small, short-term issue, which you seem to be implying. We are reacting appropriately to the literal hell of abuse that many of us have been dealing with for YEARS. Of course, only being slightly over 6 months old here, we wouldn't expect you to automatically fathom our exasperation over it, but we also wouldn't expect you to dismiss it out-of-hand as "making wild overstatements", either. Hence, the responses you are getting.



It was a continuation of the reference where you claim we are "making wild overstatements". By saying that, then saying "I just haven't seen a single person make a case for that situation being bad and wrong", you automatically invalidate anyone trying to make a case, let alone making one, obviously because it would be a "wild overstatement".

We've already made cases in the past where extortionists have made sure to buy, cut, and place microparcels in strategic places to maximize their nuisance value, IN ADDITION TO utilizing content, terrain, harassing text in the land description, ban lines, chat, et cetera to entice people to "buy them out". Again, if you want evidence, I will be glad to provide as much as you can handle. Contact me in-world.



Maybe your definition is too rigid. :)



Not necessarily. If you are summing up the position of the other side of the argument, it still can be considered a strawman argument. It still is an attempt to distract people from the real issue, and is still just as odious as a textbook version.



No, but by implication in the flow of the argument, you have done so. Why else would it matter? No one, not even the OP made any reference to "squaring the land" until you did.



Dude, I KNOW what the "formal definition" of a strawman argument is. I find your arguments fitting of the intent, if not the formal "recipe" of what strawman arguments are used for, and I think the term fits. However, if you want to offer an alternative term which better describes your logical fallacies proffered here, I am all earfins. :)



Well, I guess we have something in common about our "surmises" then, eh? ;)



Sounds pretty much like what we had done. Did you ever get a chance to see any of the Ad Zoos? :)

Did any of your local extortionists IM you with hateful messages? Did they specifically target you in the plot descriptions? No? Feel fortunate.

However, rather than let these things continue to be a growing problem all over the mainland, we not only took it as a creative challenge, but as an activist one. It was past time to put an end to these things before they literally took over the grid.



Me neither. :) I enjoyed the fight. I didn't enjoy HAVING to fight, but when the gauntlet was thrown down, I was happy to pick it up and beat them to death (figuratively) with it.



Nope. Not over small parcels. Small parcels intended and used for abuse, harassment, and extortion, absolutely. :)



Well, apparently, even LL agrees, hence the February policy, the October policy, and the soon-to-be policy. :)

..and, no, again as a strawman, no one has ever tried to convince LL that it is more important than, say, grid stability, but it is a HUGELY important problem to many, and I hope that even you would at least stipulate to that.



We definitely wanted to convince them that it was at the top of SOME list, at least the list that needs attention, and has needed attention for YEARS.

I realize that some would beg to differ, arguing that it needs no attention at all; most notably the adfarmers, extortionists, and general land harassers themselves.

And no, Ponsonby Low, I'm not saying that you're one of "them". :)

That would be too easy.



Does it? Please explain to me how waiting them out and fighting to not only get cutting ended, but many of the side-results of cutting ended by LL themselves is fueling more cutting. I would like to hear that.

No, you're right, I haven't solved the greater problem.. yet. However, don't for a minute think that I am not making the effort, or seeing any positive results from it.

You're right, you can't be extorted unless you buy in, but there will always be people suckered into buying in. Just like pyramid scams and banking scams, there will always be an endless supply of people getting bitten by them. That's life. However, LL doesn't allow (nor should they have to allow) pyramid scams, banks, etc any more. Why should they continue to allow extortionists?

I would love to have ignored the extortionists and have them all go away. However, I have plans to make my land into something neat and cool, and I can't continue to afford to spend US$125 a month waiting on ones who stated that they were going to be there specifically to "fuck my SL until I suicide" to get tired of paying their US$0.05 a month to harass me. I did outlast most of them, though. However, in the end, LL needed to step in and end the rest, and they should have, too. In the end, it was a value proposition for LL; my monthly tier, or theirs.

I, for one, am glad they chose wisely.

I was talking about your defensive buying.


I only own as much land as I care to afford and I don't give asshats profits to do the same thing ad nauseum. LL does need to step in, no doubt - but in the meanwhile those bastards wouldn't get a penny from me. They would get blocked out.

I think you misunderstand what I mean when I said I did "defensive buying".

When a landowner in my region put his/her land (large plots, not microplots) up for sale, dumped it to the bots, or it went up for auction, I would buy it, specifically to avoid having it turn into more checkerboards.

As for buying microparcels, I never paid more than L$20/sqm to anyone for microparcels, and most of the time (in more recent times), I paid no more than L$10/sqm for them. In quite a few cases, I got them for L$1/sqm from Governor Linden.



I am glad. It was always my sincerest hope that people would steadfastly refuse to cave, but simply resisting them myself didn't stop the hundreds of others who didn't resist, even with our best education efforts.

You are doing the best thing for yourself, to be sure. Keep at it!

You seem to have an attitude problem that prevents you from recognising reality

Transposing your own personal problems on other people won't help you solve them, Phil.

Whatever. But try to catch up the present if you can. Living in the past doesn't help you with your attitude problem.

Unless the future has become the past, I don't think I am in any danger of that.

Try not to become timeline roadkill if you can, please, Phil?

He's a big dragon, he's living in a land that time forgot. Be nice to him, I've seen his tail hitting people before!

Yeah. I've come across him before

I wouldn't have known who it was who had that 16m hole is his mall, but I do remember the 'hole in my mall thread', and that the person had a hell of attitude about it then.

Still do.

However, the hole's been resolved, now. Just waiting on the Lindens to make the policy they used to fill it official so others can reap similar benefits.

As for attitude, why would you expect a Dragon to have anything less than a "hell of an attitude"?

Here is your post #166:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponsonby Low
Some of us have reservations about using the Group bonus. Personally, though I've met people in SL of whom I have a good opinion, I don't care to put any of my financial concerns in the hands of someone I don't know well in non-virtual life, in this case by giving such a stranger power over hundreds of USD worth of my land. (As we all know, such ventures don't always prosper.)

You don't need to do that. Even if you don't trust the current group system (which works VERY well... it's not perfect but it's a huge improvement over the old one) you can always use your own alt as the second group member.

Quote:
I have some problems with the idea of making a Group of my alts.

What problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponsonby Low
I think making a Group of one's alts is unethical

Why?
.............................................................................................

Look at that last bit: "Originally Posted by Ponsonby Low
I think making a Group of one's alts is unethical "

Here is what I actually said (in post 156), in reply to another person:

"What you describe does sound like a legitimate use of the 'alt group' tactic (which is why I refrained from making a stronger statement such as 'I think making a Group of one's alts is unethical)."


............................

You've committed the very essence of Out-Of-Context bad faith in distorting my quote in the way that you did.

Excellent points, all.

the greatest SL invention, ever! it works. but everyone has to agree to do it, or it won't work.

Thanks for that admission.








Say what?



In the rest of your post you seem to be defending the proposition 'extortion is bad', as if I'd been posting on the side of defending extortion.

If you actually read my posts, you'll see that this is not the case.

That's your take; I said nothing of the kind.

What I am saying is that you are attacking "people" claiming things they haven't said, much like you just did there. You are using what I term as "strawman" assertions to make them. We say "extortionist / landcutter activities like this are bad", and you claim that we are "making wild overstatements about small parcels". We aren't, but when you characterize the argument that way, it sure seems like you are trying to distract or derail from the real argument, hence, my call of strawman in your arguments.

You say you want evidence, that you want someone to demonstrate to you why and how landcutting of this kind can be and is bad. I keep offering, yet you don't seem to be interested. Do you really want to see the evidence, are you really willing to be convinced?

Yup, and therein lies the extortionists' greatest weapon: individual apathy.

i call it stupidty, but that's just semantics maybe.

NO. Apathy means that they wouldn't be cowed by their bullying tactics, they wouldn't care. Hypersensitivity and/or controlling urges are the greatest weapon.

Or you may term them 'glory' or 'a nice knock-down argument'.

But if you persist in 'terming' things what you like, without any connection to actual definitions and usage, then you will find that you are continually having to explain yourself.

[a cookie for any who catch the reference!]




This is an inaccurate statement, since I'm on record in the thread as asking for the locations of at least a few of the alleged multiplicity of abuses (/327/0a/295898/3.html#post2247184). The fact that I haven't sought private contact with you is irrelevant.

No, I just term them with what I think they are. If that requires explanations, so be it. I am happy to educate.



Well, since you have asked, and I have offered, and I don't just throw what amounts to hundreds of items at someone's account without them asking first, it does tend to make me wonder. If you want just a few, I can do that, too, but not until I am specifically asked in-world. The last thing I need is someone ARing me for spam due to a forum argument.

But, if you're not really interested, whether from me, or anyone, that's fine too.