Hmm, I could pay newbies to send the IMs...
And get them suspended? You'd do better to find out why your bot was suspended. I get heaps of notecards and im's.
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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01-09-2009 15:50
Hmm, I could pay newbies to send the IMs... And get them suspended? You'd do better to find out why your bot was suspended. I get heaps of notecards and im's. |
Dave Herbst
Registered User
Join date: 4 Sep 2004
Posts: 343
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01-09-2009 15:54
BTW remember this from the beginning of the thread? I implemented a bot that went through every sim I own land in and IM'd all the other land owners to tell them about the parcels I had for sale nearby. It ran for a week or so but yesterday sadly it got suspended presumably for spam. This is unfortunate. Spam normally implies multiple and/or annoying unsolicited communications. For example, group invites or greeter notecards, which are still widely epidemic across the grid. A single IM to a single adjacent neighbor, advising them of plots for sale at market value before extortionists aquire/inflate them does not necessarily rise to the level of spam. Our group often gets IMs from neighbors offering adjacent land for sale. It never ceases to amaze me, how LL snubs proactive resident initiatives to prevent extortion, while deliberately overlooking extortion itself. |
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
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01-09-2009 17:13
Well, you know, sending just one email to a few thousand people is still spam, even if you only send them ONE message each.
[insert flames about DB's copybot protector] _____________________
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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01-09-2009 18:45
Well, you know, sending just one email to a few thousand people is still spam, even if you only send them ONE message each. [insert flames about DB's copybot protector] I don't think this qualifies, since it isn't about a single thing, but about something specific, related to the recipient. Yes, sending a few thousand messages saying "I want to sell you land" would be spam, but sending a few thousand DIFFERENT messages, saying "Here (coordinates) is a 16sqm plot next to your land which I have acquired and am willing to GIVE to you, if you want it." doesn't quite qualify in my book. Yes, it is unsolicited, but it is relevant, and it isn't commercial (at least I don't think), and it isn't repetitive. It's a different message across small groups of people. Thus, not spam. |
Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
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01-09-2009 18:52
Maybe it wasn't the content, but the speed in which they were done, that made LL think it was spam.
Thus, use "Customer Service Representative" noobs to do it. _____________________
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Ponsonby Low
Unregistered User
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01-09-2009 22:14
I'm pretty sure I'd screw up my first attempt to make such a thing well-behaved, accidentally IMing the same person more than once about land in different sims, or the same land on different days, or forgetting an "opt-out" option, or something silly. But assuming yours was better than mine would be, I'd have hoped it would be better received. I suppose it was sure to get AR'd (by a competitor, or wannabe, if nobody else), but it seems such a practical thing to do, for both the seller and prospective buyers. And best of all, buyers in the same sim, who'd have a natural interest in keeping the land intact. It would be informative to appeal the suspension, to get clarification on just how LL would have it change to be in compliance. I'm curious about this, too, and hope that LL will clarify. I can testify that I'm one who got a notification, a few days back, from one of Elanthius's bots. It was a one-time message, short and to the point, about land up for sale in a sim in which I already own land. In my view it was appropriate and useful, and in no way spam. (And because that was how I saw it, I did not AR---even if I AM one of Elanthius's competitors.....^_~) |
Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
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01-09-2009 22:19
just like the sllandlist bot, ll seem to enjoy banning the more creative and useful bots while ignoring the worst of them.
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Anya Ristow
Vengeance Studio
Join date: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 1,243
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01-10-2009 00:53
I implemented a bot that went through every sim I own land in and IM'd all the other land owners to tell them about the parcels I had for sale nearby. It ran for a week or so but yesterday sadly it got suspended presumably for spam. I'd consider it spam. You're a land seller, using an automated tool to advertise land via IM. How is that not spam? If you were an ordinary land owner it'd lack the scale to be considered spam, but you're not an ordinary land owner. I probably wouldn't object to the first one, but if you send these to a few thousand people some of them will object. And if you send it to me a second time I'll object. BTW, you haven't sent any of these to me. Did you not get it working fully, or was this only for newly-acquired land? Edit: I'd also object to the first one if you offered to sell me land at twice the market rate. When you bought land in my sim you doubled the price. Had you sent me even one ad I'd have AR'd you. _____________________
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Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
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01-10-2009 01:20
I'd consider it spam. Yeah, but you're massively biased against me. Most responses I get are positive, some are extremely negative. I'm easy either way. LL can ban it or not it doesn't make a huge difference to me. I think it's helpful for my neighbours but I can't deny I also expected it to increase the sale price of my parcels and that was my real motivation. I did put in a request for clarification on the suspension reason but to be honest if people like you are going to send in ARs simply because you think my land is too expensive then it's going to be a constant pointless battle to keep the bot online that I can't be bothered with. _____________________
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Anya Ristow
Vengeance Studio
Join date: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 1,243
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01-10-2009 01:35
Yeah, but you're massively biased against me. No, I'm not. I'm massively biased against spam. I hate it. I consider it a personal challenge to receive as little of it as possible. if people like you are going to send in ARs simply because you think my land is too expensive You don't understand the nature of my objection, and this is typical of spammers. They think they're doing me a favor making me aware of their offerings. Some think that if they just target it effectively enough it'll be appreciated. They're wrong. I wouldn't AR you because your price was too high. I'd AR you because your price made it obvious you weren't doing me a favor. If you buy land in my sim at or below market rate and sell it at twice market rate how can you say you're doing me a service? Offer to sell it at the price you paid before you put it back on the market and you've got a good argument. Offer to make the land around me more expensive and you're just doing business, and I don't have time to be solicited by everyone wanting to do business. _____________________
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Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
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01-10-2009 01:38
No, I'm not. I'm massively biased against spam. I hate it. I consider it a personal challenge to receive as little of it as possible. You don't understand the nature of my objection, and this is typical of spammers. They think they're doing me a favor making me aware of their offerings. Some think that if they just target it effectively enough it'll be appreciated. They're wrong. I wouldn't AR you because your price was too high. I'd AR you because your price made it obvious you weren't doing me a favor. If you buy land in my sim at or below market rate and sell it at twice market rate how can you say you're doing me a service? Offer to sell it at the price you paid before you put it back on the market and you've got a good argument. Offer to make the land around me more expensive and you're just doing business, and I don't have time to be solicited by everyone wanting to do business. Seems fair, I shut it down. _____________________
Visit http://ninjaland.net for mainland and covenant rentals or visit our amazing land store at Steamboat (199, 56).
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Anya Ristow
Vengeance Studio
Join date: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 1,243
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01-10-2009 02:06
Here's another tact you could take that'd make your IMs a real service...
Had you sent an IM saying there was land in my sim for sale below market rate before you purchased it I'd have been truly appreciative. Had you bought the land and offered to sell it at market rate (even if that's more than you paid) before putting it on the market at a markeup I'd still have been appreciative. But no matter how beneficial you make it you're going to piss someone off. Some people hate spam more than I do, and that's hard to believe. I've been instrumental in getting spammers sued, run out of business or shut down by their service providers. I've probably cost them more than I'll ever earn. Yet there are people who hate spam more than I do. _____________________
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Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
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01-10-2009 02:17
Here's another tact you could take that'd make your IMs a real service... Had you sent an IM saying there was land in my sim for sale below market rate before you purchased it I'd have been truly appreciative. Had you bought the land and offered to sell it at market rate (even if that's more than you paid) before putting it on the market at a markeup I'd still have been appreciative. That's all very lovely but in my professional opinion the only way to find "market rate" is to see what people are willing to pay and sell to the highest bidder. Which is what I try to do. I'm entirely uninterested in /your/ opinion of what "market rate" is and I certainly know that my opinion is worthless so I let the buyers sort it out. Regardless, I don't much like spam either and I certainly agree that it upsets a small number of people a great deal. Probably if this was a democracy the bot would stay, but it's not and that's perfectly fine and reasonable. There's really no hope for the project to be honest. Opt out is obviously pointless since people like you would AR on a single IM and opt in is equally pointless since the kind of person who doesn't know land is for sale in their own sim is also the kind of person who doesn't know to sign up for some crazy, probably useless service. _____________________
Visit http://ninjaland.net for mainland and covenant rentals or visit our amazing land store at Steamboat (199, 56).
Also, we pay L$0.15/sqm/week for tier donated to our group and we rent pure tier to your group for L$0.25/sqm/week. Free L$ for Everyone - http://ninjaland.net/tools/search-scumming/ |
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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01-10-2009 03:11
There's really no hope for the project to be honest. Opt out is obviously pointless since people like you would AR on a single IM and opt in is equally pointless since the kind of person who doesn't know land is for sale in their own sim is also the kind of person who doesn't know to sign up for some crazy, probably useless service. There are a couple of sims where I have land where I'd be interested in such a service, the problem is making people aware of it, which isn't easy without sending messages to neighbours in the first place. |
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
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01-10-2009 03:15
I don't think this qualifies, since it isn't about a single thing, but about something specific, related to the recipient. Customizing a message doesn't make it a different message. People tried all those kinds of arguments on Usenet, and nobody but nobody believed them... because ostensibly non-commercial heavily-customized targeted messages in small batches but from many many sources ended up flooding a number of groups. Unless you have a business relationship with the recipient ALREADY, unsolicited broadcast messages are spam. _____________________
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
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Posts: 7,138
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01-10-2009 04:30
There are a couple of sims where I have land where I'd be interested in such a service, the problem is making people aware of it, which isn't easy without sending messages to neighbours in the first place. But to be really useful, it couldn't just be one seller's properties, so there would need to be the equivalent of the Multiple Listing Service, which is kinda hard to imagine, given the nature of SL transactions. |
Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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01-10-2009 10:26
This is what's truly awesome about the whole AR and suspension system. Trust me I've been sent warnings a number of times and every time I have to wildly speculate on what the reason might be. There's no way for me to know if I'm being suspended for a bug or suspended for the basic function of the bot. Yes, that is what is so moronic and utterly stupid about the way the LL AR system works. They won't tell you anything, and the person reporting the problem can't find out anything about whether 1) their report was proper in the first place, and 2) what the status of getting it done is. So, what happens is the reporter keeps reporting the same thing over and over again until LL gives the reporter a "hint" that their ARs are not going to be processed, usually at a G-Team meeting. Whoever designed the AR system needs to be taken out back and shot. Repeatedly. |
Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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01-10-2009 10:39
Targeted spam is still spam. And whether it's commercial or not is irrelevant. Customizing a message doesn't make it a different message. People tried all those kinds of arguments on Usenet, and nobody but nobody believed them... because ostensibly non-commercial heavily-customized targeted messages in small batches but from many many sources ended up flooding a number of groups. Unless you have a business relationship with the recipient ALREADY, unsolicited broadcast messages are spam. In this instance, I must most stringently disagree. I hate spam as much as anyone (including you), but I do see the value, as a recipient, in this kind of communication. Thus, as far as I am concerned, it isn't spam. To wit: E-mail spam, known as unsolicited bulk Email (UBE) or unsolicited commercial email (UCE), is the practice of sending unwanted e-mail messages, frequently with commercial content, in large quantities to an indiscriminate set of recipients. In this case, your "targeted spam" argument does not apply. The content is relevant to the select SMALL group of people each message is sent to. Thus, it is HIGHLY discriminate, and would not be considered "in large quantities". If you're going to define spam as any optionally unwanted or unwarranted communication, then we shouldn't attempt to contact anyone for any reason unless they contact us first. That simply doesn't work. I have valid reasons to cold-contact other residents all the time (one most recently as she had a security orb spamming me in my own store). If that is going to be considered spam, then why have direct communication facilities at all? I think as long as Elanthius has a functioning opt-out option in the message, and does not send more than one to any one recipient per parcel adjacent/nearby that comes up for sale, it is about as non-spammy as it can be. |
Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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01-10-2009 10:51
Another example, directly related to the situation:
Some time ago, I wrote up a notecard to give to my neighbors offering to enter into a mutual pact of right of first refusal if we decided to sell our land. I distributed it to a number of them. If and when I decide to sell my land, I intend to let all my neighbors know, because I want to honor that pact (regardless of whether they agreed to reciprocate or even responded to the original notecard). I plan on doing that by mass-IMing them. Of course, we're not talking about more than 10-15 people now, but is that still going to be considered spam? If so, then I think your definition of "spam" is WAY overzealous. |
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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01-10-2009 11:02
But to be really useful, it couldn't just be one seller's properties, so there would need to be the equivalent of the Multiple Listing Service, which is kinda hard to imagine, given the nature of SL transactions. That would be a great service Qie, but you're probably right that it wouldn't be feasible. Getting notices about a certain type of land or land in a certain sim from any seller would be useful for me. |
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
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01-10-2009 11:24
I hate spam as much as anyone (including you), but I do see the value, as a recipient, in this kind of communication. Spam is defined by the following features: * It is broadcast - that is, substantively the same message is sent multiple times and to many recipients. * It is unsolicited - that is, the recipient did not take an explicit action to cause the message to be sent. * There is no existing relationship between the sender and the recipient. That is the bottom line. * If a message doesn't fit these criteria, even if it's undesired, it's not spam. It doesn't matter if it's commercial. It doesn't matter if it's tacky. If it doesn't even matter if it's illegal for other reasons. If it doesn't fit these criteria it's not spam. * If the message DOES fit the criteria, it's spam. It doesn't matter if it's to the recipient's benefit, if it's "opt out", if it's "non-commercial", if it's "customized". Wikipedia is not authoritative, nor even necessarily correct. There are many pages that are watched over by people who do not have the best interests of the net at heart, and many of them are even criminals. Wikipedia has been used in widespread crime... in fact it's arguable that the "tactical editing" of the sub-prime mortgage page on Wikipedia was a factor in the mortgage crisis. If you're going to define spam as any optionally unwanted or unwarranted communication, Targeted spam is still spam. _____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/
"And now I'm going to show you something really cool." Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23 Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore |
Anya Ristow
Vengeance Studio
Join date: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 1,243
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01-10-2009 11:32
In this case, your "targeted spam" argument does not apply. The content is relevant to the select SMALL group of people each message is sent to. Thus, it is HIGHLY discriminate, and would not be considered "in large quantities". Well, the emphasis was yours, but then you said... I think as long as Elanthius has a functioning opt-out option in the message, and does not send more than one to any one recipient per parcel adjacent/nearby that comes up for sale, it is about as non-spammy as it can be. Elanthius is not a small operator. In how many sims does he have land for sale? How many IMs is that? I don't think we're in grey area territory here for whether this constitutes 'SMALL'. Not that it matters. If I receive email wanting to sell me something I'm not going to worry about how many were sent. If "I only sent 1200 IMs this week" works with LL then good for him. Not my problem if it doesn't. If an actual neighbor sends IMs to the five or six or twelve people who are actually neighbors, I doubt if anyone will consider that spam. Elanthius, though, is not my neighbor. If he offers land for sale it's a business proposition. I'll AR it as spam. _____________________
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
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01-10-2009 11:33
Of course, we're not talking about more than 10-15 people now, but is that still going to be considered spam? The most widely circulated unsolicited bulk email that I have personally received that I did not consider spam had 35 recipients. That message (an invitation to a meeting in Redmond by a group at Microsoft) was sent in 2000, and the next similar message from the same source was not sent until two years later and to a similar sized group. So technically that was not a "one time" message... but if it's something you only do once a year or so I wouldn't consider that a break of the "one time" requirement. On the other hand if you sent 10-15 messages each day for a month, that would definitely be spam. _____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/
"And now I'm going to show you something really cool." Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23 Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore |
Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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01-10-2009 12:01
Value to the recipient has nothing to do with whether something is spam or not. I strongly disagree with that point. If common sense can tell you that the message is useful to the recipient, at its base (and, arguably, being notified that land is for sale near me is useful to me, whether I am looking to buy land or not), then I don't see how it can be considered spam. If it was repeatedly sent to me, then yeah, that's spam, but a one-off message, targeting me in an (extremely) limited group, with something that CAN significantly be of interest to me is not. Spam is defined by the following features: * It is broadcast - that is, substantively the same message is sent multiple times and to many recipients. * It is unsolicited - that is, the recipient did not take an explicit action to cause the message to be sent. * There is no existing relationship between the sender and the recipient. That is the bottom line. I think Elanthius' messages do not fit the first or third criteria. For the first criteria, what is "substantive" about the message is that a particular parcel of land is available to them now. That differs on a per-parcel basis, so the number of people who would receive a particular "substantively the same" message is quite small. For the third criteria, there is a relationship by virtue of being the owner of an adjacent parcel of land. A "neighbor", in my parlance. I don't consider him the same type of "neighbor" as those who are there using the land, rather than being a land dealer, but it fits the definition for "owning a neighboring parcel". * If a message doesn't fit these criteria, even if it's undesired, it's not spam. It doesn't matter if it's commercial. It doesn't matter if it's tacky. If it doesn't even matter if it's illegal for other reasons. If it doesn't fit these criteria it's not spam. Then, I would consider it "not spam". I don't, and I didn't in my original message, and I don't in this message. Spam has a precise meaning. Individual one-on-one unsolicited messages, or messages to people you do business with, are not spam. A system that sends automated messages to many people on an ongoing basis simply because they fit some targeted pool, that is spam. Targeted spam is still spam. Spam has a precise meaning? Maybe, but apparently, it is interpreted widely varied based on people's own values. Just to be clear, I am under the impression that these notifications are for the microparcels he was giving away to adjacent landowners, not simply just for general parcels for sale. That was what the original suggestion was earlier in this thread. |
Anya Ristow
Vengeance Studio
Join date: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 1,243
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01-10-2009 12:05
Just to be clear, I am under the impression that these notifications are for the microparcels he was giving away to adjacent landowners, not simply just for general parcels for sale. That was what the original suggestion was earlier in this thread. This is what he said: I implemented a bot that went through every sim I own land in and IM'd all the other land owners to tell them about the parcels I had for sale nearby. It ran for a week or so but yesterday sadly it got suspended presumably for spam. Edited to add: If it had been me at the switch I would have determined who the bot was spamming for (in this case easy to determine) and suspended the main account. Edited again to add: In fact, if it had been me doing the AR I would have AR'd the main account and worded the complaint "using bots to spam for his land selling business". _____________________
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