Second Life Forums Archive - OpenSim Export into SL Grid?

Kitty Barnett

Registered User

Join date: 10 May 2006

Posts: 5,586

06-18-2008 15:33

From: Haravikk Mistral

Likewise textures from the web is a bigger issue than it seems due to performance mainly; SL's textures are limited to optimal (power of 2) sizes, and a particular format (JPEG-2000 which is actually really pretty good).

I'd think the biggest problem with web textures would be the potential for griefing (rez a prim, get the neighbour's IP, serve them a goatse texture while everyone else sees a full alpha texture, good luck AR'ing that), and the fact that they're in no way permanent as opposed to SL textures.

Cristalle Karami

Lady of the House

Join date: 4 Dec 2006

Posts: 6,222

06-18-2008 15:56

From: Kitty Barnett

The debate is already ongoing though, and it'll be settled and decided long before the general public even hears a whisper of it.

The current vote seems to be for creation grid only by default which means that everything that is currently created in SL and will be created in SL for the foreseeable future will never be able leave the SL grid, that includes anything full permission and your own creations unless you created everything - including the textures - yourself.

The other options are "trusted grid" and "any grid", although there isn't currently any definition of "trusted grid".

As long as "trusted grid" means along the lines of the current LL and IBM agreement (RL established company, legal agreement etc) then my preference would really be "trusted grids". If any third party enters into a legal agreement with LL to treat the permissions the same way LL does then there's really little reason not to have it that way.

"Any grid" isn't a viable option for obvious reasons.

Although I'm sure some content creators are salivating at the thought of being able to sell everything to people a second time with "trusted grid" set this time around.

Interesting about trusted grids. I could handle it if it was like IBM, a reputable entity. I read an article yesterday about Microsoft getting into the mix with OpenSim and RealXtend. They see it as a real possibility for conferencing.

This would certainly stimulate the market for non-slutty clothing.

_____________________

Affordable & beautiful apartments & homes starting at 150L/wk! Waterfront homes, 575L/wk & 300 prims!

House of Cristalle low prim prefabs: secondlife://Cristalle/111/60

http://cristalleproperties.info
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Matthew Dowd

Registered User

Join date: 30 Jan 2007

Posts: 1,046

06-18-2008 16:11

From: Haravikk Mistral

Writing to notecards means that scripts would be able to create assets

Not necessarily - an open source asset server might actually handle an edit as an edit on an existing asset rather than the copy and create new asset method that the current LL asset server uses. If the scripting function was then to allow editing an existing notecard rather than
create new ones.

This is one area the open source servers could have impact - re-engineering parts of the SL architecture which made sense at the time but which do need attention, but in a sandbox environment where such potentially disruptive changes can be tested to destruction.

Returning to the original question - Second Inventory (www.secondinventory.com) includes the ability to transfer (full permissions) content between grids, although I've not tested how well this works myself (yet)

Matthew

Accounting Binder

Registered User

Join date: 18 Jun 2008

Posts: 0

06-18-2008 16:36

Take a look at the code for copybot.

Perhaps you can use something similar to "examine" your builds on OpenSim, and then re-constitute the builds in SL, using the same method that copybot uses.

SuezanneC Baskerville

Forums Rock!

Join date: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 14,229

06-18-2008 17:26

/128/c4/265217/1.html#post2034373

That should be a thread about setting up a standalone sim with OpenSim.

_____________________

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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

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Kitty Barnett

Registered User

Join date: 10 May 2006

Posts: 5,586

06-18-2008 17:53

From: Matthew Dowd

Not necessarily - an open source asset server might actually handle an edit as an edit on an existing asset rather than the copy and create new asset method that the current LL asset server uses. If the scripting function was then to allow editing an existing notecard rather than create new ones.

That would mean that every copy of an asset needs to have its own UUID though which would result in a lot of wasted storage and increase the number of assets to keep track of significantly.

If you don't give every copy its own UUID then once you change a notecard all other copies of it update as well, which isn't really what you want in the general case (although it would be useful in other cases). Checking if there's only one reference to a specific UUID is going to be very costly so you'd really have to make sure that each copy has its own UUID.

Then there's still the question of whether an UPDATE is going to be faster than an INSERT; even if it's only slightly slower that difference needs to be multiplied by a large factor given the load SL experience at any given time.

Opensim choices might make sense on a sim/asset server that has to serve 1 or 2 people, but that doesn't mean that change is going to scale up to the load the main grid gets.

bigmoe Whitfield

I>3 Foxes

Join date: 29 Jul 2007

Posts: 459

06-18-2008 19:42

Ive got a small grid setup right now (6 islands) on 1 machine. it's pretty neat. but the only thing that I would like to see if the ability (without having to pay 15k$L to do it) is importing things into opensim that I have created.

_____________________

GoodBye Forums we will miss you ~moe 2-2-2010~

Darkness Anubis

Registered User

Join date: 14 Jun 2004

Posts: 1,628

06-18-2008 22:05

awhile back I waded through all the stuff on setting up a private opensim grid and got totally lost
I have a single sim setup successfully (not connected to an online grid)

Can someone drop me insturctions in plain english on how to add sims to the one I have?

_____________________

SuezanneC Baskerville

Forums Rock!

Join date: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 14,229

06-18-2008 22:45

When you set up one of the standalone sims you get to set the terrain with a raw file, right?

So for those who've wondered what that's like, but don't expect to ever have the dough to spend on a sim, that's a reason to try a standalone sim. It's a way to do something you'll not otherwise get to do.

_____________________

-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

-

http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

-

Darien Caldwell

Registered User

Join date: 12 Oct 2006

Posts: 3,127

06-19-2008 12:35

From: Kitty Barnett

The debate is already ongoing though, and it'll be settled and decided long before the general public even hears a whisper of it.

The current vote seems to be for creation grid only by default which means that everything that is currently created in SL and will be created in SL for the foreseeable future will never be able leave the SL grid, that includes anything full permission and your own creations unless you created everything - including the textures - yourself.

The other options are "trusted grid" and "any grid", although there isn't currently any definition of "trusted grid".

As long as "trusted grid" means along the lines of the current LL and IBM agreement (RL established company, legal agreement etc) then my preference would really be "trusted grids". If any third party enters into a legal agreement with LL to treat the permissions the same way LL does then there's really little reason not to have it that way.

"Any grid" isn't a viable option for obvious reasons.

Although I'm sure some content creators are salivating at the thought of being able to sell everything to people a second time with "trusted grid" set this time around.

Yes, if you are interested in these issues and the work underway to form policy and technical protocols for merging grids, you should check out the Architecture Working Group (AWG) which was set up by LL, IBM, and other interested parties.
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AWG

Also Zero Linden's Office hours are often occupied with such discussions

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden

The initiative Kitty mentioned briefly about a 'creation grid only' flag can be found here:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1277

And in case you didn't hear, the first successful Teleport of an avatar from Second Life to an OpenSim sim has already been accomplished.

http://zhaewry.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/happy-jumpy-ruths-interop-takes-a-step/

_____________________

Feldspar Millgrove

Registered User

Join date: 16 Nov 2006

Posts: 372

06-19-2008 12:55

Technically, transferring things between SL and another grid should be trivial. You just need a version of Copybot that will record on one grid, and put the results in a file. Then it logs into the other grid and plays it back. This would work regardless of permissions (so is subject to abuse). For full-perm objects, it could also do scripts. Cloning avatars is likewise trivial.

I think this software may already be available, in fact.

Interconnecting the grids so that objects and avatars can move around is an entirely different thing, of course.

OpenSim Export into SL Grid?
Kitty Barnett Registered User Join date: 10 May 2006 Posts: 5,586	06-18-2008 15:33 From: Haravikk Mistral Likewise textures from the web is a bigger issue than it seems due to performance mainly; SL's textures are limited to optimal (power of 2) sizes, and a particular format (JPEG-2000 which is actually really pretty good). I'd think the biggest problem with web textures would be the potential for griefing (rez a prim, get the neighbour's IP, serve them a goatse texture while everyone else sees a full alpha texture, good luck AR'ing that), and the fact that they're in no way permanent as opposed to SL textures.
Cristalle Karami Lady of the House Join date: 4 Dec 2006 Posts: 6,222	06-18-2008 15:56 From: Kitty Barnett The debate is already ongoing though, and it'll be settled and decided long before the general public even hears a whisper of it. The current vote seems to be for creation grid only by default which means that everything that is currently created in SL and will be created in SL for the foreseeable future will never be able leave the SL grid, that includes anything full permission and your own creations unless you created everything - including the textures - yourself. The other options are "trusted grid" and "any grid", although there isn't currently any definition of "trusted grid". As long as "trusted grid" means along the lines of the current LL and IBM agreement (RL established company, legal agreement etc) then my preference would really be "trusted grids". If any third party enters into a legal agreement with LL to treat the permissions the same way LL does then there's really little reason not to have it that way. "Any grid" isn't a viable option for obvious reasons. Although I'm sure some content creators are salivating at the thought of being able to sell everything to people a second time with "trusted grid" set this time around. Interesting about trusted grids. I could handle it if it was like IBM, a reputable entity. I read an article yesterday about Microsoft getting into the mix with OpenSim and RealXtend. They see it as a real possibility for conferencing. This would certainly stimulate the market for non-slutty clothing. _____________________ Affordable & beautiful apartments & homes starting at 150L/wk! Waterfront homes, 575L/wk & 300 prims! House of Cristalle low prim prefabs: secondlife://Cristalle/111/60 http://cristalleproperties.info http://careeningcristalle.blogspot.com - Careening, A SL Sailing Blog
Matthew Dowd Registered User Join date: 30 Jan 2007 Posts: 1,046	06-18-2008 16:11 From: Haravikk Mistral Writing to notecards means that scripts would be able to create assets Not necessarily - an open source asset server might actually handle an edit as an edit on an existing asset rather than the copy and create new asset method that the current LL asset server uses. If the scripting function was then to allow editing an existing notecard rather than create new ones. This is one area the open source servers could have impact - re-engineering parts of the SL architecture which made sense at the time but which do need attention, but in a sandbox environment where such potentially disruptive changes can be tested to destruction. Returning to the original question - Second Inventory (www.secondinventory.com) includes the ability to transfer (full permissions) content between grids, although I've not tested how well this works myself (yet) Matthew
Accounting Binder Registered User Join date: 18 Jun 2008 Posts: 0	06-18-2008 16:36 Take a look at the code for copybot. Perhaps you can use something similar to "examine" your builds on OpenSim, and then re-constitute the builds in SL, using the same method that copybot uses.
SuezanneC Baskerville Forums Rock! Join date: 22 Dec 2003 Posts: 14,229	06-18-2008 17:26 /128/c4/265217/1.html#post2034373 That should be a thread about setting up a standalone sim with OpenSim. _____________________ - So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them. I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne - http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03. Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan -
Kitty Barnett Registered User Join date: 10 May 2006 Posts: 5,586	06-18-2008 17:53 From: Matthew Dowd Not necessarily - an open source asset server might actually handle an edit as an edit on an existing asset rather than the copy and create new asset method that the current LL asset server uses. If the scripting function was then to allow editing an existing notecard rather than create new ones. That would mean that every copy of an asset needs to have its own UUID though which would result in a lot of wasted storage and increase the number of assets to keep track of significantly. If you don't give every copy its own UUID then once you change a notecard all other copies of it update as well, which isn't really what you want in the general case (although it would be useful in other cases). Checking if there's only one reference to a specific UUID is going to be very costly so you'd really have to make sure that each copy has its own UUID. Then there's still the question of whether an UPDATE is going to be faster than an INSERT; even if it's only slightly slower that difference needs to be multiplied by a large factor given the load SL experience at any given time. Opensim choices might make sense on a sim/asset server that has to serve 1 or 2 people, but that doesn't mean that change is going to scale up to the load the main grid gets.
bigmoe Whitfield I>3 Foxes Join date: 29 Jul 2007 Posts: 459	06-18-2008 19:42 Ive got a small grid setup right now (6 islands) on 1 machine. it's pretty neat. but the only thing that I would like to see if the ability (without having to pay 15k$L to do it) is importing things into opensim that I have created. _____________________ GoodBye Forums we will miss you ~moe 2-2-2010~
Darkness Anubis Registered User Join date: 14 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,628	06-18-2008 22:05 awhile back I waded through all the stuff on setting up a private opensim grid and got totally lost I have a single sim setup successfully (not connected to an online grid) Can someone drop me insturctions in plain english on how to add sims to the one I have? _____________________
SuezanneC Baskerville Forums Rock! Join date: 22 Dec 2003 Posts: 14,229	06-18-2008 22:45 When you set up one of the standalone sims you get to set the terrain with a raw file, right? So for those who've wondered what that's like, but don't expect to ever have the dough to spend on a sim, that's a reason to try a standalone sim. It's a way to do something you'll not otherwise get to do. _____________________ - So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them. I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne - http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03. Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan -
Darien Caldwell Registered User Join date: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 3,127	06-19-2008 12:35 From: Kitty Barnett The debate is already ongoing though, and it'll be settled and decided long before the general public even hears a whisper of it. The current vote seems to be for creation grid only by default which means that everything that is currently created in SL and will be created in SL for the foreseeable future will never be able leave the SL grid, that includes anything full permission and your own creations unless you created everything - including the textures - yourself. The other options are "trusted grid" and "any grid", although there isn't currently any definition of "trusted grid". As long as "trusted grid" means along the lines of the current LL and IBM agreement (RL established company, legal agreement etc) then my preference would really be "trusted grids". If any third party enters into a legal agreement with LL to treat the permissions the same way LL does then there's really little reason not to have it that way. "Any grid" isn't a viable option for obvious reasons. Although I'm sure some content creators are salivating at the thought of being able to sell everything to people a second time with "trusted grid" set this time around. Yes, if you are interested in these issues and the work underway to form policy and technical protocols for merging grids, you should check out the Architecture Working Group (AWG) which was set up by LL, IBM, and other interested parties. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AWG Also Zero Linden's Office hours are often occupied with such discussions http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Zero_Linden The initiative Kitty mentioned briefly about a 'creation grid only' flag can be found here: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-1277 And in case you didn't hear, the first successful Teleport of an avatar from Second Life to an OpenSim sim has already been accomplished. http://zhaewry.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/happy-jumpy-ruths-interop-takes-a-step/ _____________________
Feldspar Millgrove Registered User Join date: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 372	06-19-2008 12:55 Technically, transferring things between SL and another grid should be trivial. You just need a version of Copybot that will record on one grid, and put the results in a file. Then it logs into the other grid and plays it back. This would work regardless of permissions (so is subject to abuse). For full-perm objects, it could also do scripts. Cloning avatars is likewise trivial. I think this software may already be available, in fact. Interconnecting the grids so that objects and avatars can move around is an entirely different thing, of course.

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OpenSim Export into SL Grid?