I am beyond IRATE!!

I agree with this and I believe it is fueled with OP's "I was here first" mentality. Well in my situation, "I was here first" too.

SL mirrors RL so much, because I too like clubs, malls, etcera, but not in my backyard.

OP, perhaps an option to consider is obtaining your own sim on its own CPU and like me what you do won't affect others and you too could possibly have a happy ending.

That's untrue. There are plenty of mainland business owners in this forum, including at least one in this thread.

Two of the things that you complained were objected to are your overhanging trees and your overhanging prim. You shouldn't have placed them so they overhang and you have no grounds for complaint. If you think it was wrong of the neighbours to complain about those things, we can only imagine the effects of the egg-throwing machines and shouting as the norm. You really do have to consider your neighbours. Make it so they hardly know you are there and you won't have any problems.

another solution might be to move your operations to the sky, far enough away that you can shout all you want, etc and no one will hear it. then you can still have things as you like them and your neighbor can also.

Well I'll say this, it's nothing like the situation in Nieun.

Well, and so what if this is, in fact, harassment? What if the neighbours think Gor is stupid and the things being shouted are unacceptable or they don't like the way Gors dress and behave? If it's a brothel, are they being subjected to sights and sounds that they don't want to see and hear?

It IS absolutely possible that the complaining going on MIGHT be their way of trying to curtail the OPs business. It's not right, but there you go. Harassment based on things that are against the ToS can't really be proven unless someone actually said "I don't want you here because you do that Gor-thing".

By shouting, using campers, infringing on property lines, appearing to lag the place, and other annoyances, the OP is giving her neighbours the tools to hound her out of there, even if they want her gone for other reasons.

All in all, right or wrong, the trouble is largely self-inflicted, no matter how you look at it. If you can't afford to place your business in a sim that is more oriented toward this sort of business then I would suggest conducting it more discretely, behind closed doors instead of shouting about it all over the place. The OP wouldn't need campers if the place were popular, so indoor space shouldn't be an issue.

Amusing, really, to see people come here to rant and complain about things like this, only to reject very sensible replies because they aren't the answer they're looking for.
Perhaps these posts should be prefaced with "reply only if you agree with me" to save people to trouble of formulating their responses.

I agree with the previous poster, what if the neighbors were trying to drive OP to move. Nevertheless, the OP did not make it easier by their actions either.

I like the suggestion of moving the business to the sky. It was exactly what I did, when I found living next to the business unbearable. But I will say this, as SOON as she moved her operations to her OWN sim I as well as my neighbors returned to our previous peaceful existence.

I have had the experience of having neighbors like the OP. Totally self centered. They build over the property lines, shout all day and night, floating text visible deep into your parcel etc..., then wonder why the neighbors are not more friendly.

Mystique, I suggest you pay close atttention to what Phil and Brann posted here.

BTW, Phil is a business owner and a staunch advocate of landholders' rights, so you're way off the mark in your dismissal.

You didn't mention any attempts on your part to communicate with your neighbors and work out the problems. Now, I believe they should have contacted you first, rather than simply filing greivances. But they didn't so it behooves you to do your best to work it out.

Why? Simply because in the long run, it's a lot easier to work out problems than to engage in pissing matches. Not always possible, but in most cases it can really help.

If I have a problem with a new neighbor, my first move is to talk to them and get to know them, and help them out with any needs they may have where I can help. Interestingly, I find that problems usually disappear before I have to mention them, or if I do, they're easily resolved in any number of ways. I admit it doesn't work with everyone: some people just aren't happy unless they're mad! My strategy with those is to outwait them: they usually move on.

Neighbors have a right to complain about constant shouting: it's a damned nuisance. If it's occasional and only during an occasional party, well, people should be tolerant. Over the border prims is a simple enough problem: easy to make, easy to solve. I suggest you double check all your borders so it's not a problem again. Of course, it's a lot easier for everyone when people ask you to move them rather than having a Linden return it.

I'm sure you have valid grievances. IMHO, your best bet is to try to work them out. I especially like the suggestion to try moving your club to the sky: this avoids the shouting problem, and also helps because "out of sight, out of mind".

I'd like to see more businesses plant their ugly stuff in the sky, leaving the ground below for greenspace, even if it's just no-prim undeveloped land.

I suggest you hold out an olive branch. Contact your neighbor, apologize for the problems, mention the things you're going to do to help resolve them. Don't give excuses or justifications: it's tempting, but doesn't help you achieve the objective which is harmony with your neighbors. After mentioning all the things that you'll do, ask if there's anything else that is a problem, and encourage them in the future, please don't hesitate to bring problems to your attention so you can work out a solution together.

And mean it.

Most people will respond well.

Restricting in parcel doesn't prevent from what I experienced hearing shouting from neighbors or neighboring sim.
The only really absolutely way to not have to deal with your neighbors is either get your own island with your own server on your own computer or spend the whatever going price LL is charging for your own private island on LL's servers.
Personally I wish LL would do something to allow me to have working viewer on my own computer instead of me going the third party route and hoping to get something that works just as well.
Yet with all bugs SL has, I can put up with the problems on the third party sites.
Now if only I could figure out how to invite those over I want on my own private island.
If you are on mainland even if you own your sim whatever your neighbors decide to do with their land is going to effect you, that is why the price is bit lower then islands.

If it were me, I'd be looking at renting a full sim from a reputable landlord. Use the 1/2 of the sim as you currently are and subrent the remaining half to the types of businesses that are looking for your club clientele as customers. You'll get the best of all worlds then - neighbors who WANT to be near you and control of your surroundings.

No one said anything of the kind, Mystique. If that's the kind of knee-jerk reaction you have when people suggest you demonstrate courtesy for your neighbors, it's no wonder you've gotten yourself into so much trouble.

Look, of course businesses are wanted on the mainland. There are thousands of them, and most don't cause the kinds of problems you've described here, as I'm sure you know. I've had a mainland business myself for well over four years, and I've never had any complaints from my neighbors. (Granted, my place isn't a club, so it's not quite an apples-to-apples comparison, but I think you get my meaning.)

All we're saying is that neighbors should respect neighbors. The fact that you're running a business doesn't mean you get to be less neighborly than anyone else. In fact, just the opposite, as a business owner, you would do well to make a point of being MORE courteous than the average person. Everyone is a potential customer after all, and bad news travels fast. Any business owner who doesn't appear benevolent and positive at all times is costing himself serious money with every passing second.

There's absolutely no reason you can't practice polite restraint, and still run a viable business. By showing a degree of polite professionalism, you'd actually make yourself more attractive to prospective customers, and your business would do all that much better. If nothing else, your time would be freed up to concentrate on the positive aspects of your business, instead of the headaches, which all by itself would mean you'd be able to make more profit. No one wins when a business becomes a hassle. Everyone wins when it's enjoyable for all concerned.



You hit the nail on the head with the last three words, TO SOME DEGREE. If you own half the sim, then you should be using no more than half its resources. If you want to use more than that, buy up more of the land. It's that simple.



Sure, but you need to keep the "noise" at a respectable level. Constant shouting, and overhanging objects is not the way to do that. I've hosted and attended plenty of parties on the mainland that did not involve such practices, and they were all perfectly enjoyable. There's simply no reason you couldn't do the same.



There are two possible explanations for that. One would be you're simply less sensitive to it than others around you are. If that's the case, try to realize that your own tolerance level need not be the gauge by which reason is defined. If the vast majority of your neighbors are complaining, chances are they've got good reason.

The other explanation could be that your neighbors aren't throwing loud parties nearly as often as you are. When a little noise bleeds out of a place that is ordinarily quiet, it tends to be a lot easier for people to forgive than when it's coming from one that's seemingly loud all the time.



I have a hard time believing that kind of generalization, after your previous one about what you thought we were all trying to say. You'd do well not to exaggerate; just stick with the facts. I realize this is an emotional topic for you, but understand, the only way to arrive at a solution is to get past that, and apply reason instead of reactionaries.



I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Care to rephrase it with complete sentences?

But yes, traffic causes lag. That's just common sense, so I'm not sure what your point is. The least laggy sim possible would be one with no avatars in it. But then, of course, it wouldn't really matter whether it was laggy or not, since no one would know about it.


Yes, and you DO. But your rights are no more important than anyone else's, and they stop at your property line. If you're bleeding noise and objects onto other people's property, they are within their rights to demand that you stop.


Without knowing the details of the situation, no one can say. There are any number of potential reasons. Perhaps those particular campers were overlapping property lines. Perhaps the scripts in them were malfunctioning, and causing disproportionate amounts of lag. Perhaps the other four simply weren't noticed. I could go on all day imagining reasons. The only way to know would be to ask the person who executed the returns. How about calling LL, and (very politely) asking to speak to whomever it was?


It seems pretty unlikely that the removal of six chairs would make any difference one way or the other, lag-wise (assuming no malfunctioning scripts, borked collisions, etc.). So I'm not sure what you're trying to say. A minute ago, you didn't know why your chairs had been returned. Now you're assuming it was to lessen lag. It can't be both.


I'd say it will end when you start to acknowledge that your neighbors may have legitimate grievances, and you offer to work together with them synergistically, to find a solution that all will be happy with, rather than just dishing out reactionary complaints and accusations. The latter never accomplishes anything. The former almost always does.

I'd be willing to bet the entire situation could be turned completely around if you were to approach your neighbors, and whole-heartedly say something like this:

"Look, I know we've gotten off on the wrong foot with each other, and I'm sorry for that. I'd like for us all to be happy as neighbors. Clearly we have some differences that we should work out. I want you to know I don't want a solution that I feel good about but you don't, just as I'm sure you don't want a solution that you don't feel good about and I don't. I'm sure if we do a little brainstorming together, we can work out a solution that makes us both happy. Tell me, what do you see as the biggest problems with the sim right now? Let's make a list together, and then figure out what to do about each item. Sound good?"

Your situation reminds me of something very similar that happened with my RL business, about 13 years ago. At the time, I was renting office space in a plaza owned by a doctor, whose own office was right next door. My business was very high traffic, with lots of people coming and going all day every day. As a result, there wasn't enough parking available for all the businesses in the plaza, and the doctor pretty quickly got irate over it.

Rather than respond in kind with a defensive angry outburst of my own, which would have accomplished nothing, I wrote the doctor a letter. The gist of it was pretty much exactly what I quoted above, an invitation to work together to resolve the problem, not in any way a confrontation over whose rights were more valid than whose. The next day, the doctor's office manager came into my office, and told me the doc had distributed copies of the letter to his entire staff, with a sticky note on top, saying "This is a good letter. I want every letter that comes out of my office to look like this." The conflict was officially over.

It turned out there was an overgrown gravel lot next to the main paved lot, which the doctor also owned. He hadn't previously thought of it, and I didn't yet even know about it. All we had to do was pull the weeds, ,move some old dumpsters that were on it, and put up a sign to let my business traffic know that that's where they should park from then on. Problem solved.

Had I reacted unpleasantly, it's likely the doctor never would have thought of using that lot, I would never have known about it, and I probably would have received an eviction notice within the week. But since my attitude was calm, invitational, and positive, the two of us were able to come up with a solution collectively together that was better than what either of us could possibly have thought of individually.

I'm sure if you were to approach your neighbors with a similar attitude, you could achieve similar results. Conflict is always best resolved by synergy. Adversarialism never accomplishes anything.

The only question you have to ask yourself now is would you rather resolve the situation, or would you rather continue to have something to complain about? If you'd rather complain, just keep doing what you're doing, and enjoy your misery. If you'd rather actually solve the problem, I'll wager it won't be very hard to do, as long as you're committed to synergy.

private sim > mainland
mainland..it doesn't matter who was there first..just who is there..

in a private sim a sim owner knows thier residents a little more than the lindens do.
plus there are some really good communities that get along really well..i'm in heaven in the one i live in and will never leave it.

mainland your life can change from heaven when you go to sleep to hell when you wake up and your whole sim has changed..

a person can move in next to you and you wake up with 20 AR's..

it may cost more in some private sims but after living in mainland my first year..i don't even like to go there to visit lol


if you are getting AR'd from everyone around you chances are you need to adjust..
like someone said earlier..make it so they can't AR you for anything and act as if you are not there to them..

you are looking for fair treatment and most times if you are outnumberd even though you may be right..you are still outnumberd and life plays to the numbers..
life is not fair..
you will rip your hair out trying to get fair when you should be looking for a better way out..find another way out and let those people AR themselves to death..which most times they will or the next person that comes a long..

you can either bang heads with them ARing them for every little thing or you can try to adjust for now until you save up enough profit to move to another sim..

if i couldn't affoard it right now i know i would in the future by doing what i could to get out of there and to a place with more rights.

start making clothes or tattoo's or something to generate more income and use that tucked away on an alt that you don't touch until you have the amount you need..

i just know i couldn't say i am stuck with no way out..there is always a way out..

Exactly why I Live and have my business on a private sim.

That seems like the best idea in the thread.

I suppose if you're living on the mainland, annoying neighbors are a chance you have to take.

Camping at a club? Ughhhh

Shouting song titles.. Ughhhhh

Bots... Ughhhh

Gorean Club?... Ughhhh


Ok now I have a migraine..... Ughhhhh

I gotta take the majority side here.. Phil mind if I echo you too?

yes that is a good one but i would still work on getting out later..move up to about 2000 meters andmake them feel like they chased you off..then about a week before you move set everything back down on the ground with a big sign on all sides saying..

By popular demand!!!We are back louder and bigger than ever!!
hahaha

oooo how funny and that is so bad!!!!

Greetings. My name is Elric Anatine and I co purchased the entire sim of Necros from LL at the time auction. The OP moved in to part of a neighbouring sim afterwards. But the "me first" argument really holds no weight, in my opinion, but am wishing to offer some clarification.

We had since purchased approximately half a sim's worth of surrounding land. We provide some residential rentals to offset the cost of creating a publicly open space of gardens, space station, whimsical natural creations and more. We are not here for profit but for sharing beauty and joy.

All we asked for some time ago from the OP was to restrict sounds to parcel (game machines, prize givers, announcers and other devices were quite noisy) and to not set objects to shout. We were railed against by the OP's business partner and told that they could do whatever they wanted on their land. The OP's business partner abusively instructed us to never communicate with them again.

Fair enough... there was only one other recourse open to us. If the situation could not be resolved amicably (as we really hoped), we had to use another system in place. The only request we made concerned the noise and shouts. The constant shouting people, DJs, items etc. persisted over time. I'm sorry, but that IS disruptive to most neighbouring persons, I should think. At the time of being instructed to never communicate again, we were about to offer to script the OP a PA type device that would IM everyone in their area so that shouting was unnecessary because everyone would receive the messages of who was up for slave auction next and so forth.

While we own considerable land around the OP's land region, we are not the OP's only neighbours and I doubt we were the only ones who have filed ARs over time. So I take exception to being portrayed as the only ones who have reacted to the OP's business tactics.

I notice the OP also omits from her plea for help their own childish retaliations against us. I refuse to stoop to a lower level and recount such here, however, as the game of silly-buggery is not my cup of tea.

I will merely say that we attempted to work things out amicably, the OP's business partner abusively and emphatically instructed us to never communicate with the OP or himself again and were therefore left to our own devices to resolve what we felt was an unfair situation.

I believe others have addressed the OP's queries regarding reasons for camping chairs being returned (if the OP owned the entire sim, of course the OP is entitled to use up all possible avatar resources, but the OP does not own the entire sim).

Best of the season to all.

Most sincerely,

E. Anatine

Elric, thank you for your side of the story. Fits nicely with the OP's way to behave here.

*brings popcorn and settles back to further watch the friday thread*

Stopped by and had a look, you are still lagging the sim - Time Dilation from .79 to .93 or so, 20 avies camping or whatever. No wonder your neighbors are unhappy! Look at in their eyes. Maybe there were times where the sim was full and your neighbors could not even enjoy their own land?

Which means:

http://pecannelog.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/drama_llama.jpg

Seriously, I don't think anyone should care about the he said/she said - we can be responsible residents or not, our choice. Overhanging prims, rezzed devices that shout and can be "heard" (we're not talking SOUND, here) into another's property are all highly anti-social, no matter WHAT they are doing.

But I get the feeling that the OP, not getting the answer she wanted here, has picked up her toys and gone home...

Also, please chekc out excellent reading at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle *grin*

I think the OP has left the building:

The rights bestowed upon owners of pixel-land do not repeal the laws of human nature. In RL, if one falls afoul of one's neighbors, bad sh!t happens, legal or not. It's probably not a coincidence that some religions have explicit commandments about how to deal with one's neighbors.

When you go beyond IRATE, where do you end up?

Hi hi, Brann!

Naw, we don't care about their actual business type and the fact that they run a brothel and stuff. We're super openminded about things (we have our own bunch of pervs on our land *giggles*). It's kinda wrong to be mean to another business for personal reasons.

We just didn't like all the shouting things. Made me wanna bash my kitty head in sometimes.

But I don't think we were the only ones filing abuse reports. I dunno.

I have an escort club across the street from me in Great Pubnico. They are very popular (One2One, if anyone wants to know), and the owner is a very nice person. She is a great neighbor, and is willing to do whatever she can to help avoid being a problem to the sim or her neighbors. I have helped her on numerous occasions, and she has gone to great lengths to make sure her club is both classy and discreet.

Sounds like she is the polar opposite to the OP.

You don't have the right to do literally *anything* you want on your own land. Mainland is a "shared space" with your neighbors, and you ignore and abuse them at your own peril. Treat it as an "apartment rental" situation. You can't make lots of noise, you can't use up all the building's resources, and you can't deprive your other building tenants the right to use and enjoy their homes.

My recommendation? Already been said mostly by one poster, but I will reiterate it: go talk to your neighbors; demonstrate to them that you are a nice and reasonable person by first apologizing profusely for your past behavior, regardless if it was justified or not. Then, ask them what issues they have with your business, and offer to do anything you reasonably can to accommodate them. Ask them to help you if you don't know how to do what they are asking. If in doubt, come back here and ask from a neutral standpoint ("I want to help my neighbors by fixing x problem with my club, but I don't know how I can best do that. Suggestions?" would be ideal).

In the end, it comes down to understanding the limitations you have to work under, respecting your neighbors' rights, and demonstrating that you really are considering everyone's best interests at heart.