Underage kid is back on new account

@Waterstar

Thanks for reporting those findings from the Internet Safety Technical Task Force but I would like to know more about the depth of the survey before taking it as an authoritative study.

For one thing, those findings suggest that older youth, which are still minors, make 90% of indecent proposals. I would like to know how they ascertained the age level and the fact that these proposals are largely made by peers? After all it is a relatively simple matter to conceal one's age and identity online.

Even if the statistic were a cast-iron fact, 10% allows far too high a margin for comfort.

Does it matter that a child who is already subject to abuse should be more liable to being abused on the internet? Unfortunate though the case may be, I don't see how abuse in a chat room or a virtual environment could be justified by the argument that the victim is already being messed about in RL anyway.

I insist that the argument about greater levels of danger in RL is specious since we are not discussing incidence of traffic accidents or the effects of armed conflict on children for that matter - we are discussing what happens in a virtual environment when two avs meet and one of those is a minor. My point is that adults are just as likely to fall foul of the wrong kind of youngster as the reverse.

I like to think that, more often than not, nothing untoward will occur but the risk of abuse from either party in that situation is still high enough to indicate that some level of censorship will, of necessity, creep into the SL experience and if not kill it then make it so dull and worthy as to be all but useless.

Hi Ephraim,

You can find out more about the Task Force - and download the report, if you wish - here:
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/research/isttf

A little research on the net will reveal that there's quite a body of other material that draws similar conclusions.

Nevertheless, Linden Lab is one of the Task Force members, which could have something to do with why they want to be 'seen' to be taking action.

With regard to the 'greater levels of danger in RL' argument: my point is that there is no line between 'RL' and 'online life'. The online experience is, like all other experiences we have, part of our Real Lives. You can create a sliding scale of risks within various environments, if you wish, but there is still the overall framework of this thing called 'life' within which all risks are relative. Of course, I respect absolutely your right to see things differently.

On your final paragraph, sadly, I have to agree entirely.

@Waterstar,

Thanks for that link. I downloaded the report but I have only had time to read the Executive Summary, which should be enough. Although it makes all the right noises, it is unfortunately quite inconclusive beyond the common sense couched in the final bulleted paragraph:

"Parents and caregivers should: educate themselves about the Internet and the ways in which their children use it, as well as about technology in general; explore and evaluate the effectiveness of available technological tools for their particular child and their family context, and adopt those tools as may be appropriate; be engaged and involved in their children’s Internet use; be conscious of the common risks youth face to help their children understand and navigate the technologies; be attentive to at-risk minors in their community and in their children’s peer group; and recognize when they need to seek help from others."

Basically, the protection of minors from online abuse is in the hands of their guardians and, however wonderful a totally caring and protective society might be, it just isn't going to happen: it is too much for parents and guardians to realistically expect strangers to give a damn what their children are up to - unless the obligation is part of their job description or they are directly affected by the behaviour of those children.

Furthermore, anyone with an ounce of nous understands that adolescents can often be the source of abuse as much as victims of it. My concern for the welfare of adults and other minors is reflected in this nicely vague aside under the final bullet point on page 5:

"Although much is known about these issues, many areas still require further research. For example, too little is known about the interplay among risks and the role that minors themselves play in contributing to unsafe environments."

The only simple solution for anyone who cares is to keep minors separate from adults where possible and to oblige their parents and guardians to ensure their safety. Having worked in the area of child protection for several years, I have to conclude that's part of the job description that goes with parenting.

I've already done it... Help Island and most entry portals makes it all too easy. (>_<

Gladly the AR priority in those places makes slugging them just as easy. (^_^)

Seeing the little avatar, they stereotype and establish trust fast and they open up... Bigtime. (>_<

It's not a pretty picture. (T_T)

Some kids and teens are open to the idea of sexting with each other. If Uncle Lumpylap can use a kid AV to condition a shred of trust, he'll be able to establish a mainline supply. (T_T)

Ephraim Kappler roars laughing: that has got to be one of the most seriously side-splitting euphemisms I have read in a long, long time. I'm crying tears of laughter here.

Seriously, though: that scenario with real kids opening up to child avs is just too creepy to contemplate. Furthermore, I am just beginning to get my brain around adults operating child avs in SL and I'm genuinely concerned that I will revert to my old prejudices if I have to start 'sussing' who is really a kid and who isn't.

XDNo kidding... Imagine ~being~ the kid AV at that moment. It's a state of fear and discomfort I wouldn't wish upon anyone. (T_T)

EXACTLY. Moreover, everyone is capable of figuring this out, so now all child avs get to be viewed with suspicion all over again, and we don't get to play the "but we're all adults here" card anymore. It'll set back quite a lot of progress.

Besides, my ego is also on the line. I've bragged that WoW has had two media-reported instances of pedos using the service to arrange meetings with minors, while SL never has that problem because minors aren't allowed. I got the words -out- of my mouth because they tasted bad...I don't want to have to eat them.

for some reason I just can't wrap my head around this statement. I'm sure you feel it, I just can't get it.

Me if I'm going to play a child AV (and I do, she's unofficially 13) I would see this as an opportunity to improve my character skills in a decidedly appropriate atmosphere. Maybe that's just the actress in me, but I figure, to absorb (and improve upon) age relative culture, you have to experience it (same goes for the range much older than I).

If you ask them straight up they say "no, we're not doing that".

So I'd say you're better off using a magic 8-ball than looking for indications from Linden Labs.

Fix: they should be able to bring everything they had in the Teen Grid with them into the Main Grid.

Various fixes, including making the graduation gradual and optional up to (say) 21, or having a halfway-house grid where ex-teen-gridders and teen-gridders can visit.


Fix: Teen XStreetSL. Allow teens to *sell* on the main XStreet and sell and buy on Teen XStreet.

I've probably missed this bit of info, so apologies if I'm asking the obvious.

But............

If/When "Children" are allowed onto the main grid, I assume they will be able to use Adult looking Avatars?

So how would you know if you are chatting (with pershaps romantic future intent) to a Adult or a Child?

Unless Linden Labs plans on putting a Scarlet Letter on kids profiles, you won't. Just like you don't right now.

Well, you can do so if you want. My avatar is a reflection of my own personal "inner child" sort of experiment; but I'll readily admit that my "inner child", as such, has very little in common with today's kids. Perhaps that's not true for everyone.

I don't have any RL kids myself; but if I imagine I for a moment that I do, and I ask myself if I'd be comfortable with them interacting on the internet with adult strangers that were, technically, pretending to be kids...no matter which angle I approach the question from, the answer, for me, is always "no". YMMV.

no offense was meant. I have a son that will be 13 this year. so I can see your concerns. a lot would depend on the context and behavior for me. but I also know that I myself wouldn't do anything detrimental to their or my security or peace of mind either. and I might even be a positive influence. nut then again I tend not to hang aroung places where I make others uncomfortable either so... it all just depends I suppose.

If they're allowed to look like this on the TG, surely it will pass on the main grid. (=_=)

So........

When mum finds her daughter on the sexgen bed with the middle aged guy she's been chatting to (and perhaps even married in SL) then no one is going to get upset by this?

Oh......you mean, other than mom calling the RL police, and middle aged guy being tracked down, arrested, life ruined, labelled a SO for life? You mean besides that? Naw.....

It depends, what is the minimum height for a Weasel to be considered an adult?

Aside from the disaster of 'overly intimate' situations, there is also the very real danger that just saying the wrong thing could cause a great deal of damage. Apparently mature minors can still be extremely impressionable even to the point where an otherwise throwaway remark by an adult could affect them.

"Maw, Eph said Jesus was an asshat."

Some parents may very well be content to have their child's judgement tested in this way, others may quite understandably consider such an instance to be irresponsible and even abusive behaviour on my part - regardless of whether or not I was addressing their child.

I guess that is the crux of the issue: knowingly or unknowingly, I just don't see why I should have to temper freedom of expression in the event that some kid who isn't being appropriately monitored by his parent or guardian may have strayed into my vicinity.

Right now you can assume that anyone on the grid is an adult, because Linden Lab does not allow anyone under 18 onto Second Life. If there are children on SL right now, they have lied and committed fraud to do so. That's a very different situation in most respects from the future plans for SL, where children and adults will mix freely.

And this is not just about online romance; most adults behave differently around children and are sensitive to their age. In SL right now, you can assume that we're all adults and act accordingly. In the future SL, you will have to assume that children might be present - and that any person you speak to might be a young child, even though they appear as an adult or a furry animal. The idea is for children and adults to socialize together, because of course that's what people like to do in the real world.



"Your" vicinity? The intent is for Second Life to be just as equally the domain of the children. In real life you can visually observe whether someone is a child or not, but in Second Life, you will have to assume that anyone is a child. You will be in a world of children.

I wonder what the minimum age of the children will be? Thirteen? Eight?

I don't socialise with children.

I don't want to socialise with children.

I avoid them like the plague.

There are places adults can go in RL where they are free from the obligation of dealing with children and that is right and proper. The necessity of having to tailor one's behaviour on account of the children is not to everyone's taste.


Yes. My vicinity. I am entitled to consider my personal space wherever I happen to be.

You could asssume everyone was adult, but I wouldn't......................

Stay on the Pornopolis Continent, then, and enjoy the activities available to you there. That will be the "adult" area, and where children will not be allowed. Of course, since all the rest of Second Life will be welcoming the children, there will be a huge increase in the number of children with access to credit card numbers who will be sneaking onto the adult continent, so perhaps you should avoid going there as well.

If you don't like those options...well, I haven't heard of any other options being planned for us by Linden Lab. I guess you could purchase your own continent, surround it on all sides with open space buffer regions so that children can't cam in, and restrict access to a list of residents who you believe to be adult. There could be consortiums to provide trusted access lists, and landlords to rent space on these private sims.

There's the question of all the interesting content in SL: the pretty places, the activities, the hangouts, and even the educational resources. Because all of those places will be overrun with children. You could go there, but at your own risk. No communicating except in IMs to your friends. No inappropriate appearance or animations or gestures or anything. And just pray that no child decides to claim that you said anything bad to them over Voice, because (unlike Chat) there is no log to corroborate your side of the story when you're talking to the judge and everybody. There will only be a log showing that you were there and that you had Voice enabled.

See, in the future, you really will have to use Your Imagination to enjoy SL.

Folks, today's children see and hear far, far worse than almost anything Second Life could possibly show them over such things as the TV, Movies, Games, general interaction and even the Internet ....

Some can handle all of this, others can not.

Let's give an example shall we? I'll use myself ....

Before I ever hit 13, I had some downright intimate, mature and sometimes sexual thoughts .... I knew quite well the meaning of many of my thoughts (and fantasies) and knew better than to allow the 'adults' around me to get even a whiff of some of what I thought and understood.

To be blunt, I was more mature than most my age - still am to a degree - and at times more mature than the 'adults' that were supposed to watch me!

By the time I graduated High School, there were kids in my home town who were even more mature in their thoughts and occasional actions than I was at their age ... the only reason some of them bothered to so much as TALK to me was because they somehow KNEW I'd gone through something similar.

Those ones wanted advice.

Some of it was bland, nothing that would get a rise out of a parent ....

Some of it was the sort of thing you just don't normally discuss with a stranger ... at all.

My point is this: By and large, until such a time as there is a concrete method to test a kid's mental and emotional maturity .... they should either remain off of SL .... or keep their bloody mouths shut about their age.

I personally do NOT want to know.

Oh, I absolutely agree with you. Regardless, unless Linden Labs puts a visible flag on the account (maybe a "T" floating next to their name), you will have no more idea than you do now.