Traffic no longer used in search??
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Eli Schlegal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 2,387
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03-04-2009 05:18
From: Neptune Shelman The point you make about the bots buying and selling mainland automatically also shows the problems that occur when land is sold at low cost by mistake, if land is purchased automatically by a bot then automatically repriced to a new cost and placed on sale then there is not time notice the error and respond, this problem has been highlighted in the past due to the number of people who fell foul of such bots.
Sure these cases are the result of an error by the seller, so maybe they need to learn a lesson the hard way, but for new users many would never even contemplate that bots will act so quickly to take advantage of their mistakes. What do you think is their opinion of Second Life when something like this happens? Sometimes this problem could mean the loss of a significant amount of RL money.
I've seen Elanthius prove over and over on this forum that when mistakes happen he goes out of his way to get the land back to the person that made the mistake without them taking a loss. You might want to hang back and read some of the older threads before you start throwing out accusations.
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Rhaorth Antonelli
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Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 7,425
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03-04-2009 05:22
From: Phil Deakins It works for me too, but don't expect not to be corrected by me if you post things that I know not to be true. why do you even feel the need to correct me, when all I did was post something that anyone can read (it is right there in the damn KB and history)
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Elanthius Flagstaff
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Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
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03-04-2009 05:26
From: Neptune Shelman Bots obviously didn't help Sarah Nerd's land business operate profitably on the mainland, which is a great shame, she was one of the more trustworthy dealers. To be clear, I don't believe Sarah was buying and selling land with bots. I simply meant that she used them for maintenance tasks such as setting prices, setting auto return, descriptions etc. In fact for a list of other bot using people see this page: http://www.landmachine.com/It's basically everyone.
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Neptune Shelman
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Join date: 1 Aug 2008
Posts: 329
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03-04-2009 05:57
From: Phil Deakins I was going by a sentence in your post that followed that one.
I don't think you'll get any support for the idea of banning bots only on mainland but, that aside, you are right that, if traffic bots are banned it won't reduce bots by very much because 'genuine' tasks will be invented for them and things will be worse - those tasks will be where people are, causing lag and much more use of system resources. I pointed that out in another thread some time ago.
Banning all bots isn't going to happen because LL (Jack) acknowledges that some of them perform useful functions - similar to them acknowledging that there are genuine uses of 16m parcels, so they aren't banned. The only realistic way to deal with traffic manipulation is to get rid of the reason for it. As with many things, if you only deal with the symptoms, but leave the root cause in place, then you won't prevent it at all.
The silly thing is that getting rid of the cause of traffic manipulation has been part of their own "roadmap for search" for a long time now. All they need to do is make the change - they already did it once, so it's quick and easy to do. There is no need for the discussions that Jack says will happen soon (again!). Traffic can be kept for the benefit of landowners, of course. Agreed, I don't expect LL to ban them all on the mainland either, but I can hope. My point was all bots do cause a problem for many real users especially on the mainland. If LL change the search to no longer take notice of traffic at all. Then hopefully the worst issues will go away, but from my limited understanding, traffic now has hardly any effect in all search, so these bots should already have a limited use if that is the case. Yet they are still being used by most businesses purely to boost traffic levels. Jack Linden mentioned in his office hour that farming out bots as a business is now becoming more of a problem. If that is accurate then even if traffic is abandoned completely for searches, Will the message actually filter down to the atificial traffic booosting bot users, they are wasting their time?
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Neptune Shelman
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Join date: 1 Aug 2008
Posts: 329
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03-04-2009 06:02
From: Eli Schlegal I've seen Elanthius prove over and over on this forum that when mistakes happen he goes out of his way to get the land back to the person that made the mistake without them taking a loss. You might want to hang back and read some of the older threads before you start throwing out accusations. Where did I accuse Elanthius of anything? If it sounded that way then it was not intended to. Not all land buying bot runners are as obliging as Elanthius though.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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03-04-2009 06:26
From: Rhaorth Antonelli why do you even feel the need to correct me, when all I did was post something that anyone can read (it is right there in the damn KB and history) Because the way traffic is calculated is well known, though not by everyone, and anything posted that causes people to think it might be different needs someone to correct it.
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Eli Schlegal
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Join date: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 2,387
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03-04-2009 06:27
From: Neptune Shelman Where did I accuse Elanthius of anything?
If it sounded that way then it was not intended to.
Not all land buying bot runners are as obliging as Elanthius though. So what you're saying is bots are not bad, but just certain bot users?
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Neptune Shelman
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Join date: 1 Aug 2008
Posts: 329
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03-04-2009 06:27
From: Elanthius Flagstaff To be clear, I don't believe Sarah was buying and selling land with bots. I simply meant that she used them for maintenance tasks such as setting prices, setting auto return, descriptions etc. In fact for a list of other bot using people see this page: http://www.landmachine.com/It's basically everyone. I had a look at the website and can see the use of all the listed bots even the buffy bot to a degree. However one of the buffy bots would also act to increase traffic if just left on a parcel without being used as intended by the creator, more to the point they are being offered free of charge. Surely it is just exasperating the situation further making these things freely available to any person who may wish to park a few on their plot. If the damn things were not so easy to get hold of then they probably wouldn't be such a problem!
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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03-04-2009 06:40
From: Neptune Shelman Agreed, I don't expect LL to ban them all on the mainland either, but I can hope. My point was all bots do cause a problem for many real users especially on the mainland.
If LL change the search to no longer take notice of traffic at all. Then hopefully the worst issues will go away, but from my limited understanding, traffic now has hardly any effect in all search, so these bots should already have a limited use if that is the case. Yet they are still being used by most businesses purely to boost traffic levels.
Jack Linden mentioned in his office hour that farming out bots as a business is now becoming more of a problem.
If that is accurate then even if traffic is abandoned completely for searches, Will the message actually filter down to the atificial traffic booosting bot users, they are wasting their time? I doubt that anyone would use traffic bots to influence the All search, because the effect of it is so minimal, but it is still the sole ranking factor for the Places tab search, which is why they are used. All bots do not "cause a problem for many real users". For instance, my traffic bots are at over 4000m in the sky - a very long way from the store and from the ground. They do not cause a problem for users at all, unless you mean that they affect the rankings that users use.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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03-04-2009 07:10
From: Neptune Shelman However one of the buffy bots would also act to increase traffic if just left on a parcel without being used as intended by the creator, more to the point they are being offered free of charge. Logging in an alt on a thin client can do the same thing. There is no advantage in using the BuffyBot for that purpose, so it's a small red herring.
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Neptune Shelman
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Join date: 1 Aug 2008
Posts: 329
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03-04-2009 08:11
From: Eli Schlegal So what you're saying is bots are not bad, but just certain bot users? From: Phil Deakins I doubt that anyone would use traffic bots to influence the All search, because the effect of it is so minimal, but it is still the sole ranking factor for the Places tab search, which is why they are used.
All bots do not "cause a problem for many real users". For instance, my traffic bots are at over 4000m in the sky - a very long way from the store and from the ground. They do not cause a problem for users at all, unless you mean that they affect the rankings that users use.?
Each bot takes up one of the 40 available number of avatars for a mainland sim at minimum which in itself is a problem whether they cause lag or not, unless the sim is completely owned as stated earlier. When I or any other user cannot visit the land they pay tier on due to a few bot running business owners then there is a problem. If these things do have a negative effect on sim performance, then there is a problem. You confirm the traffic bots will have very little effect on all search, which for me is the main search tab I use so they already have a limited use as a result. Obviously how limited their use is, depends on how many others are using the all search tab against places search tab. I don't really care that you use them to cheat rankings in the places search tab. As not being a business in competition against you, your ranking in the places search has little effect on me personally. When they affect me negatively as a user on land I am paying tier on, then I do care. From: Phil Deakins Logging in an alt on a thin client can do the same thing. There is no advantage in using the BuffyBot for that purpose, so it's a small red herring.
BOT long term afk sim space hogging alt etc. just another way for people intent on boosting traffic for their own reasons, to no doubt unintentionally cause problems for everyone else in the sim, through thoughtlessness. Which makes a real argument for change ASAP
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