Linden Loyalists

I support your movement and agree linden is doing a great job, especially since demand for things to be done can be very overwealming. But does this mean I can't use a nuke on the governor's mansion?

Ah, what's one nuke among friends?

Couple things.

First of all, an anonymous Linden source has told me that due to the object and land banking that occurs to take advantage of the -1k cap (which was given back to us after the Lindens calmly listened to "feedback" [quotes used because it seems like the feedback was only sent by rabble-rousers]) taxes actually get higher while the worldly stipend gets lower due to a bug with how the global economy is calculated without taking into account that the -1k cap is actually in place. So those who are taking advantage of the system are actually turning it into a vicious circle of agony.

I will admit that before I fixed my tax situation, precisely two times I took advantage of the cap. But I will not do so anymore! If you aren't a part of a group build, yet you face tax woes, I seriously encourage you to take a look at your means, because you are most likely building beyond them. If you are a part of a group build, then fear not! Tax woes will soon be nothing to you, as I can be sure that the new group options being placed will help you out greatly.

Secondly, remember that power outage we had, and SL didn't come up? What if SL never came back up? How's that for a nuke on your revolutionistic butt? If I hear anyone tell me that they should be able to build as much as they want and whatever they want, then all I have to say to you is that you knew the rules when you signed up to play, and if you think there's a chance in hell of them changing to merely fit your needs, you are sorely mistaken.

PS: "Kissing Linden ass" is an extremely lame way of explaining how a person appreciates this wonderful world that we were given. You either like them or you hate them, and if I have to choose a side, I choose to like them.

Dave,

Don't get us wrong... we adore what the Lindens have done, but all we are really trying to do is show that the group builds are getting hit hard by the taxes that come from the builds... the current tax structure is starting to affect group builds. We are not asking for no taxes on prims/land in the themed communities, just a tax break... much like real life cities intice businesses to build in their area. We have already lost one group build (which was absolutely fantastic), and they were forced to redesign... in other words, their creativity was stifled because of the tax situation.

If a group buys all the land in one sim for the purpose of a themed community, something that the LINDENS THEMSEVES ENCOURAGE (the Siggraph people CONSTANTLY came to Fanway Park in Americana/Blue for example), why can that sim's builds/land have a tax rebate? It would only apply to that particular sim or coordinates in a sim (if a themed community only uses part of a sim). There would be NO change in prim usage... once the sim the themed community is in hits the same prim limit as any other sim, that's it, just like any other sim.

Unless some sort of financial rebate for themed communities occurs, less people would want to create themed communities... the only other alternative would be that ALL themed communities become Linden owned and managed, therefore eliminating any taxes on those communities' members and the whole thing would then become Linden Public Works Projects, and we all saw what happened there, didn't we (Wild West Town? Does it even still exist?)?

The Lindens can set the prices lower in certain sims without changing the object limit of a sim (Olive, anyone?). Why not do this in themed sims/community coordinates?

Second Life is slowly becoming too much like First Life... the favored few (ie financially oversecure) get all of the rewards. If I want that kind of attitude, I can just shut down the computer and walk outside. We don't need Second Life reminding us of the same problems we have in First Life... First Life isn't that much fun to most of us, so why make a game and pay money for something we can feel without turning on a computer?

We don't want a game to be work or a hassle... that completely ruins the whole point of the game... fun. When a game ceases to be fun, nobody plays. See where I am going here?

The Lindens wanted to remove voting stations (which is the ONLY way for builders to receive any credit for building)... yes, people have their ways around it, but it's still the best way for builders to be rewarded for building. Their alternative plan did not reward the builder, but who owns the land (which hurts themed communities because people build on other people's land in themed sims).

All that the themed sims/communities are asking for is a rebate in the themed areas ONLY, not SL-wide... something that CAN be adjusted by the Lindens. We ALL want SL to succeed, but to do that, the Lindens have to make some sacrifices. That is all we're asking... building in Blue has almost come to a halt, or at least a very slow crawl. It seems like the only way to make money is to start overcharging for items, and just host events and become completely social... oh, wait, there's already some programs like this... they're called THERE and The Sims Online.

It is a paradox right now... the Lindens want creativity, but when people group together and pool creative resources to try and build something wonderful, something that can benefit Second Life as a whole, the Lindens seem to be less than willing to compromise and try to help these creative people who spend their time, effort, and (most importantly to Linden Labs) real life money to at least hear out these problems and come up with a solution set that can be beneficial to both sides.

I hate to say this, but if this continues much longer, I feel that people may start cancelling their accounts here, which in turn hurts Linden Labs, which in turn hurts each and every person in Second Life. These are not just creative writing exercises these are doing, but if you read between the lines, this is real frustration coming from these people... frustration that can easily turn to resentment.

In other MMOs that have an economic system, it doesn't affect gameplay as much as it does in Second Life:

TSO: No money: can't buy anything, but you can go wherever you want for free just by going to a map and selecting a location then instantly be there and earn some money by playing a game with others and chat.

There: No money: can't buy anything, but you can go anywhere and possibly win money and chat.

Second Life: No money: NO possible way to create anything or express your creativity inworld... the one thing that sets Second Life apart from There and TSO.

Pretty harsh, isn't it?

When a system potentially detracts from the main thrust of the game, how can that be beneficial to the game as a whole? If I want to play a purely social game, I wouldn't be here. This situation could quite possibly be the breaking point as to whether Second Life will succeed or fail... if the Lindens and the residents figure out a compromise to this, then SL could flourish... if not, then it could signal the beginning of the end.

Bye bye for now,
Alexis

Nicely said Dave.
And just for the record....
Even those of us that lead and propogate this Revolution, love the Lindens.
We have no qualms with them, It's the MAD KING GEORGE we are after.
And his Tea.

Crow

Thank you for your support Lt. Dave

The Lindens listen to us way too much sometimes.

As you said those individuals that can't afford what they have are building beyond their means.

As to the groups I firmly believe that 1.1 should solve most of our problems.

I am losing about 100 L each week because of my land in Americana, I don't even log into SL much anymore because of time constraints but since I made a commitment I will keep my land there no matter how far into the red I drop. The fact that Americana has become a hotbed of whining about SL bothers me and shames me to be a part of it.

sure there are ways to change the tax structure that would be worthwhile, but just to drop taxes lower is not an option. There is a limit to what the servers can hold. If taxes are lowered too much, than a rich group of people can buy up everything and all new players wouldn't be able to find any land or if they find land then the object limit will be maxed.

Oh add more land you say? We should only be adding land in conjunction with the number of users not in some hypothetical world where we have dropped the limiting factor and the same amount of people just want to build more.

I would love to see your proposals for lowering taxes though. I just don't see anyway for it to work.

These are the facts of SL.

If you are an ambitious person, you can make a profitable store, run events, or come up with some other profit yielding task and then build what you can limited only by your profits. If your taxes get too high, find a way to make more money.

If you are not one of these people, one of the people that complain that they dont' want to be forced to do this then you are limited to having a smaller build, and maybe only one.

What is wrong with that though? You can make and maintain one nice build very well with the socialistic stipend we have.

As Lt. Dave said you knew all this in Beta, you knew all this before you started.

The only place I see a need for possible tax reduction is in the Groups and I don't think we really need it there. 1.1 should solve most of the problems. Americana has 30+ members, even if none of them made more than their stipend than they would only need to donate 36% of their stipend to pay Americana's taxes thats around 1,500 a week. The fact is there are many in Americana that make more money that this, with Events and shops. So that lowers the burden per person if these richer people are willing to donate some of their extra money. What it comes down to is you want to be able to afford Americana without donating large amounts of money each week (this isn't meant to be insulting to anyone because I know alot of you have put forth lots of money for it). With the group controls all land in Blue will be group held land and hopefully there will be a tax structure set up for the group bank account. Tax us at 20-30% and hold americana fundraisers occasionally and we will easily meet the tax burden. this will also solve the problem of people who are members but dont' contribute.

If after all this Americana can not afford its taxes I will be more inclined to agree that we need tax reductions.

General JV

Just to follow up on Alexis's post, I'm pasting in a reply that I made in another topic to give some of the economics of the situation...
----------

Initial Sim land purchase: $206,208

WEEKLY sim land taxes: approximately $39,000


The initial land purchase was $206,000.... The weekly land tax is $39,000.... That means that essentially we are re-purchasing the land every 6 weeks in taxes paid (6 weeks x $39,000 = $216,000).

Now I've seen the argument put forth that in RL you have to pay land tax too....Ok, that's fine. But Land taxes in RL can typically be measured in a percentage of your homes worth yearly. (Example, I pay 2500 in land tax a year for a home worth 150,000 in RL).

So is it fair for the larger communities to pay such a high land tax...Take the next logical step...

Americana...
($39,000 x 4 weeks x 12 months) = $1,872,000 in taxes YEARLY for a plot of land that cost $206,000 to purchase... Or a 900% yearly tax rate..... Yeah, it's just like real life alright....

There is something very, very wrong with this system. I just hope that this thread helps the Lindens find a solution before 1.1 is rolled out.

/end rant

-Bone

except Bone you forget that a SL year does not equal a RL year.


Do you really make 3,500 a week?

I think of a SL week more like a RL month. I'd love to hear the Lindens thoughts on how SL and RL time match up.

So that would mean 12 weeks of SL equals a Year in RL

That is why your yearly tax figure looks so messed up.

General JV

I never said that a SL year equals a RL year...

But let's use your own figures Jon, so 12 weeks in SL equals one RL year.

$39,000 (weekly tax) x 12 weeks= $468,000 in tax for a land purchase of $206,000. That's still over a 200% tax rate for the 'SL year'.

Somehow, the numbers just don't add up.

Try and spin it all you like, the simple fact is that the economy in its current state cannot handle things of this nature. In order for SL to grow and prosper like we all want(players and Lindens alike), changes will have to be made.

-Bone

The reason it doesn't add up is because, there is the limiting server resource factor.

There is only so much land and so many objects that can be created.

So there needs to be some way to limit peoples money so that

A. No one person or small group of people buy up everything and rule the world with an Iron Fist

or

B. to make sure people don't have a huge amount of cash they can't use... this would lead to inflation.

so the tax structure has been designed as the way to limit peoples cash to aid the economic system.

Try to spin it however you want, you are asking to be able to build more without repurcussions... I know my economics, your way won't work.

General JV

In what army Jon?

Bone's right.

Not to mention....just cause the sun goes around the sim more than in RL, doesn't mean that a SL year doesn't equal a RL year.
It does too. They people are playing it in RL. The calendar we use for events and dates...a RL calendar.
Just because you see the moon more often doesn't mean anything.
According to the Lindens, the sun rotation is meant just to get people to stop building and to actually interact with each other.

And while we know of your intelligence Jon, RL economics will be a heck of a lot more applicable when SL has a stock market, a long standing job market, and a welfare system to help all the poor schleps who live in the very same Americana that you used to call home.

We love you, Jon....come home.

Crow

P.S....Stop by Americana at least once in the next week, and talk to one of the members about what's really going on, because the rich in Americana are few and far between, Jon. Stop in soon, to find out who's gone, and meet your new brethren.

Equating SL taxes to RL taxes is a fallacy. You are a renter, not an owner.

The initial outlay is your deposit, which you'll recieve when you give your land back to the Lindens (unless it's used for abusive purposes, then it's confiscated). Every week you pay rent on your land for the right to use it.

Ex-PFC Schwartz Guillaume Wintergreen

Hmm, can't pay ya taxes, huh? I know lets all go whine ot the Lindens when we need money! Yeah! You wonder why you have high taxes do you? Well, most of you own chunks of large land in Blue and in Americana so maybe you should limit yourself? Don't take this as an insult, take it as a "Dr Philing"

Actually, it's only $1000 a week, plus bonuses. $1000 a week is reasonable for a salary, although certainly above average.

Perhaps it would be better to think of L$ as a foreign currency, with something along the lines of a 2/1 exchange rate with USD.

lol, now that would be a funny Av name... 'Dr. Phil Titan'

FYI...the plots of land that are owned in Blue were set to a preset size by the Lindens before we ever bought them.
We didn't have a choice as to their size.
Now, I belive they can be split up...and we are working on a resolution but that'a Americana's business.
Thanks for the concern, Though.

Crow

NO, they were not a preset size. At one of our meetings it was decided that we wouldn't have anyone own anything less than 1/16.. which actually turned away a few people who wanted to be landowners but couldn't afford that much.

The only Linden stipulation was that noone could own MORE THAN 1/16.

JV

Your right Jon I forgot.
Finally, you've done more good than Bad.
Heh heh heh


Crow

This is not JUST about land taxes, but when land taxes combined with the taxes on builds that themed communities need to thrive pile up, that limits the number of builds that themed communities can do.

1)As for people complaining that you had to buy 1/16 when joining Americana, that is a fallacy... we offered group members who wanted to help purchase the sim but were not as prosperous as others in the group the opportunity to purchase 1/32 of the sim when the time came.

2)Voting Stations right now is the only way that builders can try to recoup some of the taxes on their builds... the Lindens wanted to do away with Voting Stations. How does a builder recoup some of the money they lose in taxes for their builds if there are no Voting Stations. Taxes on builds, depending on their complexity and number of objects they are made of, could possibly equal the taxes on 1/16 of a sim.

3) There are proven instances where land cost/taxes and prim taxes can be adjusted by the Lindens (Aqua and Olive respectively), without affecting object limit.

If said things can be adjusted on the Linden side, with verifiable evidence to back such a statement, why can't the Lindens then make adjustments for themed areas? We are asking for a rebate for themed builds/sims, NOT a complete removal of taxes.

Such a rebate could spur more interest in working on themed areas, but not crush those involved into poverty. How can a 10 to 20% max rebate in themed areas/sims destroy the economic system? This isn't just about Blue, but Grey, Gibson and any other themed build as well. It's about the survival of ALL themed areas. It seems fitting that Americana brought this up, since in a way it does almost mirror the situation that caused the original 13 colonies to secede from British rule.

As someone once said, "Learn from history, or esle be doomed to repeat it"... it looks like history is repeating itself, just in a different venue.

Bye bye for now,
Alexis

*RTFL
---
---
Jon Von Lenard:
Over the past few weeks, I fear you have parted from us
Now it has come to this - Crow must hunt you down
---
It's not too late to redeem yourself in the eyes of Americana
Turn away now from the Service of the Mad King George
Show us the wisdom that led you to join us once before
---
Americana stands greater with you than without
---
Join us in our fight against tyranny and taxation
Our cause is good, and just - and we will prevail
Kazenojin and our other allies will rise with us
Even now, our plans crescendo toward victory
---
--- =Sinclair

The prim limit is a different matter altogether.

See, the taxes keep the prims low so they dont tax the server, but when the prims DO hit the limit it still makes the servers strain and lag quite a bit- I see the prim limit as a way to keep the servers from collapsing altogether.

So, in other words, the current tax system IS necessary.

Besides, if there was no tax, the prim limits would hit in all of the sims and noone would be able to build..

Hmmmm...in this thread and several others ive heard it mentioned that there are "citizens" that have so much money they cant spend it? Thousands of dollars they cant use.....?

I am here to help those citizens
The "help Maerl become stinking filthy Rich" foundation is for you.....Do you find all that L$ weighing you down? Just cant decide what to do with all the overflowing chests of gold and silver you have? Give generously to the "help poor little short Maerl become stinking filthy rich so she can shop and buy all these wonderful toys she see's" foundation today......with your donation to the " help the little hobbit maerl become stinking filthy rich beyond her wildest dreams so she can buy 3 helicopters when one would be highly sufficient enough" foundation, you receive a signed plaque denoting that you, the generous donator, has helped Maerl fulfill her long SL dream of buying every little gadget she see's...you'll be glad you did....Join today..help the little ones =]

.....really..im serious
lol

Don't forget the designer stilts!

what can i say but ROFLMAO!!! Maerl you go sisterfriend!

Did someone say Hobbit

Hugs; Cat Cotton

Designer stilts merriman???? WHERE????
<pulling out L$ check book>