Casino Games, rigged?, and if so why?

Contrary to the wisdom being expressed here, it appears to me that the only thing necessary for a gambling den to become popular is for it to be carefully designed to maintain the mere illusion that a player is getting a fair shake. If you're making the deduction that because an area is popular that it's games must not be rigged, I have a slightly used bridge to sell you (and a nice collection of camping chairs.)

I've plonked a few dollars into the various machines around SL and at no time was I ever of the impression that I was doing anything other than putting some change in to see the machines do their "thing".

Virtual Game Inc. Games are rigged by theft. I put 12000 Lindens in the VGI machines at Angelz High the new Island casino. the owner came in stole all the jackpot money then booted me out stealing 1000 Lindens in profit for herself.

I thought you said in another posting that the money had subsequently been returned?

Only my money was returned. All the money people put into the jackpots was now.

I am actually working on a method of validating casino games. Mine at least. It's not perfect but it's as close as can be had in SL. I'll post details when I have i have it fully implemented.

Since we are making plugs, I'll say the Blackjack tables at SL Playground (in Whitestone) are to the best of my knowledge the most favorable to the player in SL. They are full featured, with splits (up to 4 hands per game), double any two cards (double allowed after split), properly paying insurance and use only ONE deck. The house margin is very slim. On top of that, soon they will have the closest thing to a validation system there can be in SL. Oh yeah, and the gameplay is very smooth.

Don't worry about it Tony, it's just one of those things that happens when owning a casino. If people lose, your games are rigged, if the win, they love your casino.

i have won and i have lost i still go back but i have seen glitches i guess you could can them on the slot machines, although think about this lindens are worth us dollars humm maybe a gamming commision could help. but the favor is always on the house no matter what which is the way it should be.

I may have found a rigged blackjack game. NONE MENTIONED IN THIS THREAD.

It would be similer to this case Casinobar Although I do believe it changes a players card also giving an even higher devation that should be picked up quickly . If i have some free time I will test it out and record my results.

Why not create some open source casino scripts? Then maybe start a group to oversee and verify all the "fair" casinos that use those scripts.

Not a bad idea at all.

As someone who just got hired to script a casino game, I'm on the fence, though.

On the one hand, I'm new and want to make a good impression and reputation. I WANT people to see my code and know that it's fair.

But I'm also getting paid for my work, and don't necessarily want to share it with the world.

But, re-reading, you're not saying "open source"... rather have a small oversight group that could put it's seal of approval on games. I think that's a good idea.

Adman

Umm, how about no?

I script my own games and so do many others, this will never happen and shouldn't. It's very anti-capitalistic and will ruin casino game scripting in SL.

I have gone thru several different casinos and for the most part they are honest, at least the owners are. Many of them buy slot machines that are available that do 75% payout, and are sold with this as part of the advertising. Now, to payout a straight 75% meeans that they are definitely NOT random. I dont think that many casino owneres realise that these machines are inherently rigged. Some Blackjack tables are the same way.

I have run across one casino that does their best to cheat their customers and rely on a steady stream of new folks that come in, play their games and not long after, figure out they have been scammed all along. I will not give the name here but feel free to IM me ingame and I will let you know which one I have positively identified.

I also have run across several casinos that are very fair and honest. The one (only one normally) that I frequent is Club Extreme run by Chilly Charlton. His games are all straight random and he makes his money on the odds like a straight RL casino. There are frequent payouts, I hit a royal fluysh yesterday on a vid poker machine, I had 5 bet and the payout was 5K. He has had several payouts over 100,000L. Chilly is the creator of all his games and he is the person who created the group poker games that are popular like Slingo. He HAS been accused of cheating and the person accusing him went to the Lindens about it, they looked at his code and sent the accuser packing. The games were totally straight without any guaranteed, preset rake to the house.

So, yes there are dishonest operators out there and there are very honest ones too, and there are the many who do not know what they are doing, just buy their games and assume they are straight, that fall into the middle range. So I would definitely enjoy seeing a rating or reporting system set up specifically for casinos. But in the end it is always 'Buyer Beware' and look into the games you are playing!!

Steelwolf Pascal, Dwarven Builder

Yes and that sounds just like something a casino owner would say. No it would not ruin anything but the ability for some to run scams. Having a verification system and governing body over gambling will only build trust. There should also be fees involved to provide customers with that trust. If you are not a member, you go on the blacklist and people are warned about the games at your casino. Simple as that. It's fine if you disagree, you can lose business to those who will agree to play fair.

75% payout is a scam. I don't know the exact letter of the law but a normal casino will have something like 95% payout. At least mine does.
If you have a lot of time on your hands you can check http://www.gambling-law-us.com/
Oh, and real casino games are not random, according to a rather extensive article I once read. The outcome of the game has long been decided by the time you start pressing buttons on the slot machine. It's the law, they have to guarantee the level of payout, so in fact the odds are tipped in your favor. A purely random game would have really horrible odds.

That can be considered threat and extortion..as well as spreading a repuation about. The lindens don't look to kindly on those who blackmail like you just threatened.

Consider youself blacklisted stellar

I'm not a casino owner and I've never scripted a casino game and I'll say it too. It's completely unfair to expect someone who has spent a considerable amount of effort and time creating casino games to toss that all away and use some predetermined script. And the added threat of blacklisting anyone who doesn't agree and assuming they must be crooked, well that's a real nice touch.

Of course the irony in all this discussion is that if you play any of these games long enough you'll go broke whether they're rigged or not. That's just simple math. So really it's more a question of how quickly you want to lose your money. Look at it this way - if I told you I'll give you back 99 cents for every dollar you give me you'd tell to go far away. In RL, casinos advertise slots with payouts of 99%. Same thing but now it's a selling point...

Uh sure buddy. Overreact much? I highly doubt that any sane, mature person could look at what I said as a form of threat, blackmail, or extortion. Something to lose by the standardization of gambling scripts, eh Jonas?

The point is, if you don't want to play fair, people will find out and go elsewhere. I could give a damn about being "blacklisted" by "youself". I don't play these shady casino games anyway, because there is no way anyone can trust them.



Yes, someone who had nobody watching them... who would notice if they tip the odds in their favor? How could you prove it if they did? Your right though, a blacklist is harsh. So instead we will have a white list and strongly urge people to use casinos they can trust.

Eggy,

You are one of the best coders in SL and I'd like to see the artilce you refer to about real life gambling machines being on a schedule. Your post is the only reason I am replying to this thread and I most likely will never reply to another "casino/gambling" thread again.

I hate drama and would much rather stay out of it. I don't have the time for it and I believe people will figure out for themselves where they want to be entertained without a lot of help from other people.

Mostly I am interested in the article you refer to, not that I don't believe it exists but mostly because I'd like to read it for myself in order to improve on how I code my games to be the most compliant with real life games. Although SL is not real life I would like my SL experience I offer to be as true to the real as possible. If this article could glean how I could better do things then I surely would like to know exactly how it is so I could decide to or not to implement that.

At the same time (and mostly) I am going to defend random numbers.

Everything I have ever researched show that the only fair way is the random way. Of course I'm the first to admit that even at 99.99% payback if you continue to play in the end all your money is gone. But non-rigged == random IMO.

How Slots Work:
Refer to this article:
http://money.howstuffworks.com/slot-machine.htm

Or skip to page three of that article:
http://money.howstuffworks.com/slot-machine3.htm
A random number generator at the heart of the computer ensures that each pull has an equal shot at hitting the jackpot.

Here is some more ... from another article:
http://www.casino.com/videopoker/article.asp?id=433

14th paragraph down:

Nevada gaming regulations require that all machines be random, but they also specify that each unseen card in video poker must have an equal probability of appearing while there is no such requirement for symbols on a reel slot.

You see with random you CAN guarantee in the LONG run a % payback and at the same time guarantee the same probability of hitting a "jackpot" on every spin/deal. That is the beauty of random numbers. Yes, the same machine "could" hit a jackpot twice in a row, but it's not very probable, yes the same machine "could" live it's whole life and never hit, but that's not very probable either. You see, over MANY spins/deals the numbers "approach" that percent. I don't see ANY other way to guarantee a % payback and at the same time guarantee that every spin/deal has the same chance as every other. The only way I know of to do this is with random numbers.

For instance you could flip a coin 100 times and have it come up heads every time, it's not impossible, it's not very probubal, but it is POSSIBLE. If you flip a coin a million times you might even have some runs of 100 heads in a row but over that million flips you will have close to 500,000 heads and 500,000 tails ... and every single time you flip the coin, no matter what came before or what will come after that flip still has a 50% chance of coming up heads. This is random numbers working IN THE LONG RUN and IN THE SHORT RUN. And this is the beauty of random numbers.

My slots are pure random ranging from the approx 80% to 95+% payback with no "schedule" ... every pull has the same odds as the last. Every pull is random. By counting the positions on the reels and caculating how often each pattern would show up when randomized and adding up the money in versus the money out anyone can calculate the the actual odds on a slot machine (if it has no weighted symbols). Even with weighted symbols which manufatures use to offer huge pots yet still set the odds yet still not schedule payouts (yes they use random) the % payback IN THE LONG run can be calculated. No not guaranteed but pretty damn close.

When I designed the slots I figured the odds on them or what they should be based purely on thier pay table, number of postions on the real, statistics on how often permutations should happen with a good random number generator etc. After they were complete I did in fact run simulations to run tens of thousand of spins and collect data. I ran many such simulations. Guess what, the simulations verified 100% that the odds I figured were actual odds realized in the machine.

I did not do this to verify I know how to set amounts to permutations to make a particular % payback machine. I did this basically to verify the random number generator used in SL is a good one for the purposes I was using it for and also to verify I didn't have any blatent mistakes in my logic (which is quite simple by the way).

All my poker games are pure random. The deck is randomized (shuffled), then cut (from a random spot), then every single card is dealt from the top EVERY SINGLE TIME. So yes you could hit a royal flush two times in a row. I have yet to see it happen, but it CAN happen. And yes, every single hand has the same odds of hitting as the hand before and the hand next.

My Jacks Or Better has a 9/6 pay table which is 99.5% payback if "PLAYED CORRECTLY" from the randomized hands. Actual data from actual casinos shows a 2% advantage to the casino over the 99.5% perfect play because humans are not perfect and or many do not know "how" to play a particular game.

My Joker Poker is a FULL PAYBACK machine if played perfectly, this takes into account the frequency at which natural royal flushes "should" occour in the world of random numbers, and playing it using an optimized strategy. Once again real data from real casinos shows the house to actually have about a 2% advantage here because of humane error or not knowing the best strategy.

I did NOT calculate these odds, I found them throughout the internet from reputable mathematitions whom are themselves interested in calculating the odds in such things as these card games. I did not save URLs to all of the articles and research I did ... anyone with MANY hours on thier hands can go do their own searching and verify they will find similar data. Calculating these types of things is not easy, I won't even attempt it. But given a particular pay table and also given an optimal strategy for a game (these have been figured out) and also considering using a RANDOM sequence of cards being shuffled/drawn then the odds CAN be calculate and have for many games out there. All of these DO assume using RANDOM numbers. Those odds which have ALREADY been figured out by other people are the odds I trust and believe in and base my games on.

So no, your quote "A purely random game would have really horrible odds." is absolutely wrong. A purely random game's odds CAN be calculated both for slots and for card games. Not only that it is the only "FAIR" way to ensure that both the odds are KNOWN AND each pull/deal has an equal shot at hitting the jackpot. ... each and every one.

That is each and every single pull or deal ... including the one just before or just after an actual jackpot. Every single one is EQUAL.

That is not to say a game using random numbers could have really horrible odds. It could! It all depends on how it's designed. It could also have really great odds. Random does NOT == horrible odds. But you CAN use RANDOM numbers and still KNOW the odds.

I have paid out 250,000 L jackpots (ok only one of those so far but I'm sure there are more to come). I have paid out MANY 100,000 + Jackpots ... yesterday I paid out 150,000 L in large jackpots and I don't know how many small jackpots. I see jackpots happen all the time ... I've seen several in a couple minutes then none for a couple days. I have NO IDEA when they will happen. They are RANDOM. One thing I do know is they WILL happen, and I don't have to freaking schedule them ... they just simply WILL all on thier own. And odd as it may sound, BECAUSE of RANDOM numbers I know more or less the frequency OVER THE LONG RUN that they will happen because that's the beauty of random numbers.

I'm sure people like Tony Tigereye has paid out even larger jackpots. I can't play my own games because that is no fun at all ... it's boring playing against yourself. There is no entertainment value. When I play I play Tony's. My game of choice is Jacks Or Better, even though Joker Poker has better odds. I don't know how his games are set up but I'm willing to bet they are RANDOM. If they're fair they are. If they aren't well they are still fun when I play them. And that really is the way I look at it. It should be FUN. When I go to the movies I know I'll sped X to see the movies. When I go to Tony's I know I will spend X to have FUN. I never go thinking I'll "WIN" I go thinking I will be ENTERTAINED. If I ever hit a Royal over there then that is HELLA ENTERTAINMENT. If I don't then I paid for and recieved HELLA ENTERTAINMENT anyway because I knew there was a CHANCE it could happen.

There is nothing more exciting then knowing that chance ACTUALLY EXISTS EACH AND EVERY SINGLE TIME I TAKE IT.

Now that is fair. Or at the very least == not rigged. I know the house has an advantage as well as anyone else. That is what I choose to pay for my entertainment, that house edge. That is what I'm paying. When I go I tell myself I'll use X dollars, if I double it I'll quit, if I spend it I'll quit. I don't know if that's a good strategy or not. That's just what I do.

Random is a beautiful thing. I trust it complete.

I will repeat one of the very first thing I stated in this post:

Of course I'm the first to admit that even at 99.99% payback if you continue to play in the end all your money is gone. But non-rigged == random.

Steelwolf may be wrong about anyone ever going to the Lindens ... I don't know of a case of that actually happening. I have offered it, maybe it's been done and I was un aware. I don't know. I do know I have offered at any time for my scripts to be inspected by any Linden for non-rigged == random with no pre-set outcome and that offer as long as the code itself is not taken and given away remains. I have never approached a Linden myself I would rather bug them about why mouse clicks aren't working or some other bug. I also think they would rather spend thier time fixing bugs like mouse clicks then being baby sitters.

I have been in the past accused of "rigging" when someone hit a bad streak and offered them the same thing "Find a Linden that will look, feel free". If they ever did or not, I really don't know and I really don't care and I really doubt that Lindens have time for any of that. If they do I welcome it. I know what my soup is brewed of and it's pure random. Look all ya like.

The actual cases that come to mind those same people have been back and been on "winning" streaks and apologized. I don't mind the criticism and I don't cherish the apologies, things are what they are, I know what they are and that's good enough for me.

With random numbers I don't know when I will lose or win, I don't know when you will lose or win. All I do know is there will be a whole lot of both going on ... it will be RANDOM ... and depending on the pay table there will be a % in the long run that the house ends up with. Whether I am the house or I am playing the house. It's that simple.

It really should be for ENTERTAINMENT purposes only.

The house is a movie theater, come watch the movie ... set your own ticket price ... watch as much and as little as you like.

I don't know what the odds are on all my card games. I do know I have taken the pay table of REAL LIFE games when I could find them. I shuffle the deck, I cut the deck, and I deal every single card from the top after that ... fall where they will.

I believe Hang Ten is near the worst around 93% payback. I know Jacks Or Better is 99.5%, Joker Poker is full payback, Duces is close to full payback but I haven't found an article or break down for my exact pay table. Kings Of the Deck I have no idea because I can't find full stats on it nor somone who has posted the odds nor even exactly how the pay table and the progression on it should work but the pay table I have is based on the only one I COULD find so I suppose it isn't horrible. I think I toss one or two percent back in for the progression or there abouts. If/When someone does hit five kings of clubs they will be very very very happy and that has the same odds of happening EVERY TIME. I don't know what all the "best" strategies for playing each game is but many of them are posted on the internet.

My slots I do know and they are better then most sold or in game, the Christmas slot is my most gernerouse one so far. I forget exactly as I'm sitting at work right now but it's something like 93% payback or better. No this is no where near 99% as some in Vegas but it's also no where near 75% as MANY in game. NONE of my slots are as bad as 75% unless I've made a stupid mistake. None of my slots so fare have weighted positions although some do have teasers ... which is when a losing round comes up I'll tease by showing a close miss to a pot BUT I don't EVER change a winning to a losing or a losing to a winning spin nor change the odds EVER ... the tease is for excitement only and is frequently done with slots.

I may make some with weighted reels eventually to offer huge pots but the % payback will always remain generous. I'm also thinking of making very very very generous payback even better then the Christmas slot because why not? In the long run even 1% is a gain to the house.

I give a LOT back to the community. One event costs close to 5K at my club of cash given back. I NEVER use money/camping chairs. I NEVER have pure freeplay clicking for an hour. We mix it up and jump around doing diffent things and SOCIALIZE, have fun etc...

I never come out slugging trying to hit top 20 or get incentive awards. I have events to HAVE FUN, give back, and promote my place. Although I have hit top 20 and gotten incentives, my events have never been for those purposes.

I most likely will never post to threads like this again. I'm more interested in the scripting threads and I'm more interested in creating new content.

That's my RANDOM cents on this subject. And my reasoning why I believe that Random is actually THE WAY to do it right.

Please show me another way that's just as much fun?

--Chilly

Here are some other interesting links:

Old but good from SL forums:
/120/85/34811/1.html

Some real life stats:
http://www.casinospage.com/casino_returns.htm


Jacks Or Better Strategy:
http://www.casino.com/videopoker/article.asp?id=2584

Duces Strategy:
http://www.casino.com/videopoker/article.asp?id=2656

Another Look at slots and pots:
http://pilarski.casinocitytimes.com/articles/5990.html

Someone Actually Doing some casino math: OUCH HEADACHE!
http://gaming.unlv.edu/research/subject/casino_math.html


One last thing to note, in my opinion making open source is not so much a fear that other people will see how to make slots or card games. They are both EASY. Slots ... have some positions, grab three random numbers, spin to them and count the score.

Cards are, shuffle, cut, deal, allow holding, deal, count score.

SIMPLE

Open source to me is giving away my optimization techniques for how to make MANY games run at once and quickly using the very least amount of sim resources by techniques having to do with texture optimizations, script optimizations, score counting optimizations, and communications optimizations. Those are the things I hold dear and sweat and lost sleep over implementing. The card shuffing or reel spinning. Anyone can do that! You want to see those it's simple, it's something like this:

LIST = [0,1,2, ..., 52]

llRandomizeList() <<< or what ever the call is

CutDeckPosition = llFrand( between 0 and 51 )

Cut the deck.

deal
deal
deal
deal
deal

hold?
hold?
hold?
hold?
hold?

deal?
deal?
deal?
deal?
deal?

count score() <--- top secret super fast way to correctly count the hand score! Figure your own way out!

DONE!

-----------------------------------------
here is slots:

llfrand()
llfrand()
llfrand()

SPIN SPIN SPIN
count!

that's it .... jesus!


Forgive my script function torture/misspelling/incorrectness I don't have the wiki open but you get the idea...

cheers

Those are great comments from Chilly. I went to his casino, Club Extreme, for the first time a few days ago, and it was by far the best I have seen. I love the way it had both Deuces Wild and Joker Poker in addition to regular Jacks or Better video poker. Deuces Wild is my favorite and I haven't seen it elsewhere. It felt like the machines were playing fair, and the payoff tables were generous too.

I recently started writing a video poker machine script and I agree with Chilly that the tricky part is the scoring function, figuring out whether a hand has 2 pair, a flush, straight, etc, as efficiently as possible. Especially the wild cards make it an interesting challenge. I discovered a bunch of "tricks" but I'm sure there are more.

I am still aiming to pursue the idea I described in this thread:

/165/de/88732/1.html

It would mean that honest casinos won't have to rely on people's good faith, and won't have to suffer abuse from players who refuse to believe that their losses were due to bad luck (or bad play). Players would be able to protect themselves against cheating machines by using a HUD which checks that the cards were dealt fairly.

I don't know if the technology will be truly practical; it might be too laggy, or maybe too cumbersome. But I am working on a test implementation and if successful, I hope that this will eventually be adopted by casinos that want to guarantee to their customers that they are getting a fair game.

Hey maybe you and Chilly can work on some type of "Casino startup kit" ? Then you can distribute those fair scripts to people wanting to get in the casino business, without "open sourcing" them per-se.. and make money doing it! As it is I think everyone hires scriptors to write the games, or writes them on their own.. Which takes time and can lead to unfair or laggy games. Considering the profits a casino rakes in and the time Chilly put into script coding and optimization, I'm sure you can charge a lot for that package. Maybe the Lindens would even want it? I read a post where they were looking for "business start up kits" recently. Well, if you decide to go that route make sure to display a list of casinos using those scripts.. so I know where to gamble

And so I know where to avoid. I'd rather spend my money on casinos that show how much the creators care about their job.. as in those who build their own scripts.

Anyone using premade would be buying the easy way out and those are the ones I feel can't be trusted.

On a side note i've been trying to make a gambling machine that IS relatively fair. But there's not much to go on as far as open-source scripts for such a thing.

Can someone be so nice as to give us soemthing to work with?

Thanks

Well I'm sure you're in the minority there. Just because someone "seems to care" about their business doesn't prove aren't running scams. In fact, con artist make it a point to gain your trust before they stick it to you.. That's why they are called "CON" artists. Con stands for con-fidence.

To me, someone who buys a business shows me that they are intelligent, they value their time, and they will have more time to focus on providing a better experience. Someone making a casino from scratch will most likely (we hope) be fixing bugs in their games..and these are bugs that may lose us real $. If they are making profits from them, there is no incentive for them to bother fixing those bugs. Also there is no way to tell if they were intentional or not..

Real world businesses always outsource work, buy businesses, franchises, etc. It's smart, and in some cases the only way things ever get done. For example, in the computer games industry, people hire artists to create their models and animations. It's usually better to pay someone who knows what they're doing so you can focus on what really matters. You will almost always end up with a higher quality product and finish it much faster than doing everything yourself.

It always better to gamble at a place that understands the games fully than one who can't fix the work if it breaks.

'Easy road' aka buying casinos makes for alot less trust to me, and i won't do business with people I don't trust.

OK, but you have to remember that's your opinion and everyone else may not feel the same way. Personally I'm a bit concerned with the fact that a casino owner can go in and "fix" his games whenever he feels like it. But that's just my opinion ;D