Casino Games, rigged?, and if so why?

I agree the "open source" scripts are a good idea - it's less about blacklisting those that don't use them than whitelisting those that do.

To those who say it's anti-capitalistic - capitalism is about competition, no one's saying you can't use your own scripts, you'll just have to compete with those who use the open source scripts and the customers will choose which they prefer. Maybe Jonas doesn't like it, but i'm sure a lot of people will appreciate the transparency and feel more confident they are being treated fairly.

problem. no way to make sure peeps who claim 2 use open source scripts actually do.

open source by its definition can be edited and if it can b edited it can b rigged.

there is a solution tho, or at least a partial solution. i will relate more when it is ready

Since the Linden actually exchanges to real dollars and purchased with real dollars...it would seem illegal for casino machines to not be regulated somehow.

Maybe I'm just still too new to understand how this game works...


Seems like a murky area though.

I was starting to develop gambling games, but after playing in a whole bunch of casinos I realise theres very little consumer confidence in casinos. A game doesn't need to be rigged to be unfair, it just be coded by a moron, or ill managed by the casino owner.

Here's some problems I've encountered:

Roulette table, I bet L£300, won L$600, so had L$900 to cashout, but it only gave me L$500. Messaged the owner, no money was returned.

Double or Nothing Orb - Two people playing at once, it got confused and ate my money.

I've crashed 2 roulette tables in as many days (the tables just stopped accepting my money). Once cost me L$200, as I was 1/2 way through my gambling strat (which works fine in real casinos, over and over, though it's time consuming & has small rewards). The other the owner gave me my money back.

Also on Roulette, wanting to bet L$45 dollars on 2 spaces, there isn't time as many tables jump from L$5 chips to L$50 chips. So I have to drag 18 chips across to the table, plus work out my odds, and collect previous winnings. There just isn't time. Cost me L$150 that occasion (bets would have won if I'd been able to get all the chips accross in time).

Blackjack I don't play, cause of all the rigged reports, and machines don't offer good enough odds.

What I don't get is why Casinos don't regulate themselves. No input from Linden Labs is required. It's in the casino owners own interests. THEY'RE HAPPY ENOUGH TO TELL PEOPLE THEY'RE HONEST, BUT MAKE NO EFFORT TO PROVE IT. So screw 'em. Despite the conveniece of the machines, and the bordom of camping, I'm not gambling in LS any more.

My casino code would have been open-source but, without regulation, it would be easy for people who can't program much to copy my code make a rigged game.
As an alternative to building my own casino, my plan is now to produce XXX products. At least then I know people are gonna enjoy the thinks I make, and won't be manipulated by greedy folk using my code.

Here's a suggestion for a solution.

Get the Lindens to add a pie menu option to hash an object. This would give you a general object hash, along with hashes for all scripts and sub objects and whatnot.

With such functionality in place, you can create a set of trusted volunteers who will inspect a machine and slap a seal of approval on it. All one has to do to see if the seal is still good is compare the hash the seal provides for the machine inspected with the hash you just took of the machine. If they match then the machine you are playing is the same machine that was approved.

The trusted volunteers thing is the real challenge: they need to be trusted by the players to not be falsely approving machines, and they need to be trusted by game owners to not dissemate the code they inspect.

The other angle on this is a halfway approach: create a card deck object that works as a black box to game developers: you ask it to shuffle X decks, then you ask it to spit you a card. The black box creates a stack of virtual cards by shuffling a proper deck (instead of just generating a random card), then it cuts, etc and sets up a stack with the cards, which it pops from the stack and hands to the requester. This gets distributed to developers for free and its hash is made public, anyone using the method I described above can compare and know that the gaming machine contains an unmodified card box. While this gives some idea that the table uses sound parts, it lacks the aspect of third-party inspection (someone could just shove one in their machine to increase trust and not even use it).

In the end some form of inspecting and then hashing the machine is probably the best way to achieve trust, and since the approval seal could even be externally owned it could be as simple as clicking on the seal and having it announce that the machine was inspected and is unmodified.

Just gotta get those trusted volunteers and Linden Labs to provide a method to hash someone else's object.

What is really hard is proving if one is rigged or not at times as the scriptors get smarter... I've gone to each casino here who says they are legit... one of which on the blackjack table using very small decks... the dealer got 3 blackjacks in a row, if i was an average player i'd think thats rigged.. and start telling others to not go there. But as a scripter who probably places to much trust i'm sure it was just a fluke. I will say out of all the blackjack tables i've played I love Sapphire Moons the best, for a period of 2 weeks i was gambling every night, some nights I left up 10-15k linden, other nights down around the same...

02-11-2006, 06:23 AM #27
Mark Newchurch
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7

Virtual Game Inc. Games are rigged by theft. I put 12000 Lindens in the VGI machines at Angelz High the new Island casino. the owner came in stole all the jackpot money then booted me out stealing 1000 Lindens in profit for herself.
Mark Newchurch


02-11-2006, 11:05 AM #28
Selador Cellardoor
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: S.E. England
Posts: 2,226

I thought you said in another posting that the money had subsequently been returned?
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well now if all his money was paid back to him then there was nothing in the jackpot for him or anyone to win cause he got what he put in the jackpot back to him!!!!

even when theres glitchs and games dont work i pay back all paid into it even though people pay the games at their own risk... and when they create drama or bitch ban them cause i dont want to hear people bitchin... it causes me to suffer physical pain to deal with the damn drama... thats why my island sign says no drama allowed on island... my profile even says no drama... if u cause it in any way at my island i wont hessitate to ban u... and people need to remember that when u gamble if u loose your money in a machine dont complain about it its u who chose to put it in in the first place...

and keep one thing in mind i havent yet to see any form of profit in fact i have paid over $1500 us dollars for the island and its games so no i made nothing off him instead i lost on him cause he got more then 12000L out of me...

i think some people need to remember that the decks on the bj tables are shuffled each game so counting cards is out and so is writing down the patterns... and honestly if yall think they are rigged go to vegas and see they are set up pretty much like the tables in vegas...

It's not gambling when the scripts are rigged to never pay the player and there is no regulation of same. I have said it before and will again...LL needs to enforce some sort of fair business and gaming guidelines, because when you allow people to hose other people, they invariably will.

i agree with u there.... cause my friend found a place that when u bet a 1L u win every time but when u bet over 1L he lost every time...

now thats rigged

Well, all I can say is there's Aaron Levy's SLBBB, www.slbbb.com

It's non-profit.

He's just getting it started and can use some help working out the various systems for verifying identities, creating a seal system, and in general getting enough momentum to make this work.

I strongly support the idea of a private complaint-resolution/seal based system. It wouldn't require anyone to open up their code, and it would allow merchant ratings like resellerratings.com has.

So instead of complaining about things, lets go help Aaron make his idea work.

K, well, I'm returning to SL after a hiatus and I see theis thread is still open.

One thing that concerns me while looking through the messages is both creators and players listing rules, algorithms, and methods used for games as if they are absolutes. The fact is each creator uses different means to code, deliver, and present their games. It is extremely important that you view the rules of a game before you play and that you message the creator (not owner) with any further questions you may have about a games functionality.

There are a couple of features that vary beetween games I'd like to make everyone aware of:

Some blackjack tables deal randomly from a complete deck every hand, while some like mine and Tony Tigereye's deal from a shoe in which played cards get discarded as used and new shoes are introduced as each runs out of cards. This is what you would see in a RL casino.

Some slot machines in SL are very simple and will randomly spin each wheel each time. This is logical and probably what most ppl would assume slot machines are supposed to do. RL casino games are highly regulated however, and there is are minimum payout percentages that must be enforced by the house. This is accomplished by creating a virtual real that is larger than that which can be seen (usually around 21 stops) and utilizing a random number generator. This doesn't hurt the player, it only helps narrow the deviation from the set payout percentage (usually around 95%).

Off the top of my head I'd say video poker is probably the least effected by the creator's methods in SL.

I support the idea of a type of rating/feedback forum for SL games. If anyone has questions about anythign to do with SL gaming pls feel free to contact me in-world.

Long ago I met a guy about gambling machines. He was without a doubt the rudest person I've met in SL.

Anyway, this guy tried to strongarm me into adding gambling machines in Chase's Manhattan. He volunteered that we could make lots more money by setting the machines to cheat. He stated that *at that time* many casinos had dishonest machines.

I didn't want his slot machines to begin with. I had no confidence he'd give me my full share. So I asked him not to contact me again. Drama and annoyance followed.

His avie no longer appears in find. He must have annoyed other people as well.

I had time to kill while wating for my 3D Animation homework to calculate the physics (I'm making a pure dynamics based Rub eGoldberg device, it takes about 20 minutes to run through, heh), I started reading.

I've noticed the glaring obviousness for SL's casino games to be highly rigged or with other problems (I played with one free slot machine once, and over the course of 10 minutes you could win about L$15, the thing was, it had stops between the symbols! It was impossible to match 3 of anything, and 2 of the "cherries" was ungodly rare). I noticed that many other casino slots (pay ones) were the same design.
So, I set about looking up real statistics and MAKING my own 'fair' slot machine. I've finished it, and although the reels spin slowly (I'm using a texture offset method, it was the easiert to figure out and score) it had a theoretical 91% payout rate. Since then I've tested it, and although I've yet to see the three highest paying matches come up, it pays out pretty even. Any given testing period I see from 50 to 200% payout (the longest of these was 100 spins (8000 different combinations) and I saw 4 "medium" rarity matches come up, the slot spend most of it's time having paid out more than was put into it).

I have thought about trying to find a way to regulate the casino industry, and really, I think the only way is to create and market fairly designed systems.
*Pauses as Goldeberg device hits critical stage of needing to be watched*
Damn, freaking ball didn't roll downhill again. Now where was I? Oh yes...
I think the only way is to create and market fairly designed systems. I will be recoding my slot machine to use faster methods of generating symbols (pure llFrand(20)) and not spinning the texture at all, just moving it to the result. My machines also keep track of their own statistics, and I would be willing to make it so that anyone can see them (save for "money taken" and "money given." It's also recently been coded so that each reel tracks it's symbol statistics so I can gauge if each reel is spinning perfectly randomly (on the test of 100 spins, the varience was less than 2% from the expected).
My slots can also be set up to work with camping chairs to the point where before the max rate per 10 minutes is reached the game should have paid out 90% and the increase to the chair rate makes up the other 10% (based on default settings). BTW, iRL legal is ~87% and up.

If I had the patience, I would code card games as well, but it looks like those have been taken care of. I did code a backjack game in DOS-output C++, though rendering it in SL is a much different task. I applaud those who have done it.

I also have finished, compeleted, and running a PowerBall type lottery similar to what the MUSL (multi-state lottery) association has (I have 3+1, the established iRL is 5+1). It runs on cheap tickets (only L$2) and has purely llFranded winning numbers. And of course, you can choose which numbers on each of your tickets. No drawings as of date, as the sheer number of tickets required for any kind of fair system (fair on both sides) is 5000 (there are roughly 8900 different unique tickets). I hope for it to grow in popularity to the point at which I can have monthly drawings--if not more frequent. As of recently, most (undecided percentage) of the profits is going towards the new Second Life Good Causes Fund. Lord Sullivan runs it, so IM him for details.

The game you played probably generates a random card on each draw, rather than generating 52xn deck worth of cards in a list and then radomizing their order. This makes for some odd hands now and again, but unless your a card counter it wouldn't make any difference in black jack. If you play perfect strategy, and don't count cards your going win about 48% of the time over the long haul. The short term variations around that 48% are quite big. It's easy to have a protracted loosing streak. If you want to profit from gambling, I would suggest opening uor own casino.

16k memory + sfx, etc... and other things to eat that for the machine script reduce the number of decks, some can have 6 some are 1...the one that are 3-4 can have space left to do things like lists and better patterns and code can be skewed to even a uuid's odds.