I propose this forum be closed.

Ulrika, I understand your desire for precision, but I think you are falling a bit prey to the semantics here. In spirit, those who call SL a dictatorship under LL are not completely incorrect. It is true that decisions within LL would be made by Philip, Robin and board members like Bill Gurley, so yes there are multiple parties within, but LL acts as a single entity.





i don't see anything wrong with this forum being open to debate and knowledge sharing among those who are building self-governed sims (naturally those sims still fall under the over-arching laws laid down by LL) -- and I don't think you do either, since you seem to then go on to talk about how themed sims need a place to discuss their emerging dynamics (assuming I read it how you mean it to be understood).


Even though I was once upon a time a poli-sci major and still find it quite fascinating, at first I thought this forum was unnecessary and in some ways unfair, giving too much attention to one subgroup. (There is no top-level forum for art issues in SL, for example.) But I'm coming around because I do think that groups within SL need to self-organize. If LL is truly going to be a platform provider, they need the user base to take on as much as possible. Note that I am talking about sub-groups, NOT a central user-run government (shudder).

Of course the term "political science" is a bit of an oxymoron, as much as its students wrap it in statistics, but that's another topic

agreed

I don't think anyone can get away from politics. And the most vehement people on this subject, are the people who want to get rid of this forum... This indicates to me that the forum is CRITICAL, to bridge the extremism that exist around this subject, if for no other reason. And yes, it deserves a separate forum... It is not a general topic, and totally uninteresting to most people. Despite the fact that, like IRL, EVERYONE here is a member of a political system, even if it only the chat pals, the gf / bf, the neighbour, or the local club...

Ulrika seems to be one of the few people posting on this thread that is not completely polarized, and can still think and discuss on this subject in an analytical and differentiated way. But others are slowly coming to understand that they already ARE in a political situation, so support is also emerging that this should be able to be discussed with other people who are willing to discuss and dissect the effects of the various political systems running here... and Ulrika mentioned only a few, rather obvious formal examples. And I think Oligarchy is right... not all totalitarin forms of government are a dicatorship... Good Forum topic, in itsefl!

Since as has been pointed out, political science is no science, but a mixture of art and technology IMHO, it is a very fascinating creative field... And DEAD boring to most people, as well as something that can be tried out Here and Now in SL.

We are not talking Govenment here... we are talking about empirical and heurist generation and discussion of poltical systems.. and whether these can evolve into becoming various forms of government, or whether this automatically results in a Ruler / Ruled system, in each particular case, is EXACTLY the kind of thing a separate thread is needed for.

And if I were the Lindens, I would be Very Excited to see what comes out of the various political systems that are forming here, both formal and informal. In this sense, SL is a Perfect political sandbox, within the TOS of course...

Keep the thread!

Ditto what Azazel Ditto'd

I vote Willow for President - now what a world THAT would be

SL is a game, a playground. Participation in it is on a contractual basis. In SL I live under a contract, not a government. Attempting to call it anything else is patently absurd. Pretending that any "political sim" impacts anyone besides its residents is fallacious -- so long as they remain within the scope of the TOS and infringe in no way upon others' rights as a consumer of Linden Labs' products.

I reiterate: You already have a perfectly valid recourse for discussing your play-politics in the creation of your own external forum. You already have one for your Neualtenberg. Yet you choose to foist your desire upon all of SL by having this forum opened. Why not open a forum about Sex in SL? Religion in SL? These are other things in which one may participate at a local, individual level. The first preoccupies many. But I think most have the common sense not to request these fora -- they realise, consciously or no, that doing so just because they can is tantamount to intellectual masturbation.

Masturbation is fine, just don't jizz on me

I second Suzanne's inititive in the presence of people who agree with it.

I support Juro's counter-argument to people who are like-minded.

I am also looking on the web for a "how to become a congress-critter FAQ"; pointers appreciated.

Wow! Now that was a post.

I wish I could claim you as my alt.

~Ulrika~

I think Ulrika is providing a valuable service to our community by speaking out. There are problems in SL (digital variations on RL themes). We all know that. I not sure that a goverment in any traditional sense will solve them, but we need to continue the dialogue until we find some solutions. This is a good place to do that. Lets not close it.

I still want my ballot.

You can find a copy of "How To Run For Congress" in the October 27, 1958 issue of Time magazine.

I would tell you what it said but I was only almost 4 when it came out.

Personally I think that information on how to run from Congress is more useful.

It is in fact a true virtual government.

I was going to save this for another thread but I'll give a quick overview of it now. Pierre Lévy the author of Cyberculture lists four ways in which physical and virtual worlds correspond and interact: analogy, substitution, assimilation, and articulation. Analogies are simply virtual copies of physical objects or concepts, such as homes, currency, or governments. Substitutions are the replacement of real objects, services, and concepts with virtual versions, such as using a virtual world to teach instead of RL classroom. Assimilation refers to taking virtual infrastructure such as the internet and even SL itself and integrating it into the fabric of real society much like a utility. Finally, articulation is the integration of real and virtual with the goal of taking the best from each rather than substituting one for the other.

Thus, when you say that LL is a company and you have a contract with them, you are looking at it from the perspective of the real world. When I say that LL is a government, I am looking at as an analogy. Inside the virtual world, LL looks and acts like a government just like Linden Dollars act like real money.

Right now LL and some private SL citizens are exploring education in SL. Initially we saw analogies (University of SL). Then came the substitutions (in-world classes). I believe that LL currently is exploring assimilation by creating dedicated teaching sims as a service for schools. Ultimately, it will lead to articulation, which is the combination of the best of both worlds.

The same thing is happening with government and not just in SL, in all virtual worlds. It would be a shame if SL as a medium missed an opportunity to explore virtual politics because of ignorance and fear.

I'm the only person from my group who has actually posted in the new SL Political Science forum and I've never seen the others post to my group before. This forum is a good idea and it's already working, which is probably why the Lindens created it (not me). I recommend directing your hostility towards them, mostly because I want you to experience the validity of the governmental analogy first hand.

~Ulrika~

I would propose to leave the madman in the public square where all can see what they are ranting and plotting rather than putting them behind closed doors where no one knows.

No actually - LINDEN LABS - opened this forum, starting to catch on yet? or could it be that YOU are the one that actually needs a pulpit to preach from?

Wow another hostile post from you. Brilliant.

Hostile? Nope - when I'm hostile you'll catch on dont worry about that.

To re-cap, SuezanneC Baskerville is doing a little song and dance in this forum basically stating that Linden Labs and the TOS is the only kind of government that Second Life needs.

Yet here she is jumping up and down demanding that very same body of officialdom that she says she trusts 100% are wrong and that they should change their policy.

Confused yet? you will be.

Yes, LL opened the forum -- I don't believe after having fully considered the issues. Who pushed for the forum...?

As for the rest... stroke, stroke, stroke... (edited)

You are crass and repulsive. Go take your pornographic trolling somewhere else.

~Ulrika~

let me turn the question around: who pushed for the forum to not be created?

why did ll listen to the people who pushed in one direction instead of the other?

could it be that ll considered people who pushed against forming the forums were wrong?
or
could it be that ll is a bad governing body because they make bad decisions?

on a more fundamental level, why should ll listen to anyone?

it's silly for people who don't want a government forum to sit there trying to tell ll what to do when they are exactly arguing that ll should not listen to the residents in regards to policy.

it's intellectually dishonest to say that ll didn't fully consider the issue because they didn't happen to do what one wanted to do.

fundamentally, why should ll listen to one group over another?

I don't have a problem with this forum. As others have written, if it keeps Polisci convs out of the other forums then it is beneficial.

BTW -- being a Maryland grad when I saw Polysci I thought it was a poultry science forum.

As LL is a company, the answer is profit motive -- plain and simple. It's up to them to weigh whether favoring one group or another is in their best financial interest or not. And as a paid customer it's up to me to let them know if I think they've made a good or a poor decision. There is nothing "intellectually dishonest" with stating one's considered opinion, as I have done. If there's anything intellectually dishonest happening in these fora, it's the contorted equation of company as government, the misplaced invocation of such lofty notions of "free speech," and the rather peculiar appropriation of the term "pornographic."

Sorry, I find I can have little or no respect for those who call a spade an apple. If I decline to respond further, I'll only be amused if anyone here takes it as a "victory."

under that theory, then ll is giving people something they want, thus encouraging more involvement with the world of sl, which increased retention. maybe.

and for those people who don't want a government forum, then they can ignore it. especially since many of them think that ll doesn't need to listen to the government faction of sl, and since the government faction is impotent, why deprive them of their game?

unless the government faction is not powerless?

but if the government faction is not powerless, then maybe the non-government faction is not powerless. why should ll listen to one faction over another?

is ll listening?

maybe that is what irks the anti-government faction? that ll is obviously listening to sl residents. just not the "right" ones.

so what makes one group right and other group wrong?

[victory speech]
btw, i declare victory not because you might not respond, but because you can't back up your arguments because empty rhetoric. maybe if you actually address edwhat was happening in sl as opposed to what you imagine in your head.

i repeat you are intellectually dishonest.

or

maybe the goal is to make you shut up... in which case victory!
[/victory speech]

Not confusing at all.

By way of analogy, I trust the system of the US government 100%, am fully capable of songs and dances in praise of the constitution and legal system, yet I despise many acts of my government officials and disagree with several judicial rulings.

Just because I trust that system, it doesn't follow that I'd be incapacitated from jumping up and down when I believe the bodies of officialdom within it have screwed up.

I don't agree with Suzanne on the issue of creating a poly-sci forum, but neither do I find her inconsistant, hence confusing. She is an articulate activist whom I sometimes agree with, and sometimes not.

ditto

Well "Suez"-anne, I must say I find this thread offensive.
If you are serously suggesting this my only response is:

a) who the hell do you think you are?

and

b) mind your own *%@£* business!

If people want to *discuss* something and they are even willing to keep it out of your face by having a whole seperate forum about it, what business is it of yours to object?

It is painfully obvious that there *are* political dimensions to Second Life and even though it is not a Popular forum, the material (IMO) is FAR more relevant to SL than a lot of other crap that gets discussed.

If you dont want to read it, ... well dont.

do you rush into RL coffee shops and tell people to stop talking about something just cause you dont like it?
Even when you are not there?
Even when its not your shop?

Am I allowed to talk about things in my own living room that you dont like?

Please tell me the rules so I wont bring your disfavour upon me in the future.
I couldn't stand that.

If you don't like the forum, don't read it or post in it. We have enough "I don't like it so you can't either! mentality in the world.