Dedicated Government Forum

How would you all feel about the creation of an official Government forum? It would keep governmental discussions out of the General forum, yet it will legitimize the presence of government within SL.

Cast your vote.

~Ulrika~

Honestly, I'm not sure that most people care one way or the other. Maybe you should've added a "I don't care" option. Personally, I don't really read many of the government threads, and there aren't many of them to begin with. I guess I'm in favour of better filtering though, so yeah. Put them in their place.

Edit: Also, are you sure that was the best way of wording option 4?

Don't tread on me!

JUST SAY NO TO SELF-GOVERNMENT!!!

(and buy my atomic bombs)

I do not believe there should be a forum dedicated to it unless LL decides to allow true representative government. Which I do not see happening and do not blame them for not implementing.

Most governmental type discussions have revolved around zoning and protection. They seem to work well in the Land/Economy and General forums.

My vote is for 'No. It might legitimize government in SL.'

We don't need a central player government other than the sweet near-anarchy we have right now.

Jamie, is it self-government (sovereign government of the individual over their own affairs) or player-based government that you oppose?

-Ghoti

I consider "Self-Government" meaning "rule by players" and "Player Government" one and the same.

Regardless of symantics, its a terrible idea.

Ulrika, it's absolutely amazing what you will go through, just to attempt to attain the goal of being the boss of everyone else in SL.

Tell me, when you become ruler, will you wear a tiara?

No, she'll just be "First Citizen"

Ditto on Cat's post. Don't care. I don't think the Lindens will ever let players seize control in any meaningful way. So I tend to view SL player governments in the same light as the SL mafia, SL vampires, SL military, etc. Its a fun SL passtime for players interested in that sort of thing.

Well. That's not where she's headed. I agree, Aimee. If they want to go get a sim, and prance around calling eachother guvnah, let em have at it.

But that's not what this is about. It's about you being answerable to a player government, and, specifically, you being answerable to Ulrika, when all of the bullshit falls away from the facade.

This is exactly what we're doing. We're getting our own sim in Phase II.

As for the prancing around part, I'll keep it in mind.

~Ulrika~

Indeed, its symantics. Just to clarify my postion:

Both "rule by players" and "Player Government" are the same thing.

When I refer to self-government, I am really speaking of individual sovereignty.

Individual sovereignty is the right and the ability to govern one's own actions independently and to govern one's interactions in concert with others.

-Ghoti

Well Ulrika's intentions are debatable. Some some say good, some say sinister. I'm just saying that since player governments beyond one's own property will never ever (one more for emphasis) ever happen, that the debate is only of interest to political hobbyists. This is why it's on par with mafia and vampire games in SL.

If I ever hear the slightest buzz inside of LL that this sort of thing could become a reality, then I will pay closer attention and pick a side. But at this point I can't celebrate or condemn anything Ulrika is doing.

oops. I need to read poll results better. I voted for #2. Hopefuly I deleted the original response before anyone saw it.

Not to be nitpicky, but doesn't the topic of Governments in SL already have it's own forum? I mean, that *is* what the Neualtenburg group forum is all about, right?

I voted no, I want it here on General Forums where I can see it.

I think player government is coming to SL, in some form or another eventually. I don't necessarily like it, but I think it's going to happen; it may not be in six months, or a year, or two years, but it will eventually arrive (if SL lasts that long). It may be in the form of LL finally licensing the SL software/engine to individuals or collectives of player; then we have the option of frequenting whichever set of sims we feel best meets our needs and most closely adheres to how we want our Second Lives to be run.

I just don't think that the Lindens want to continue acting as police and nursemaids to us all, in the long-term picture. They're overextended as it is in handling complaints about user behavior, even with hiring new liaisons recently, and it's only going to get worse as SL grows. I think the Lindens want players to eventually take over the task of keeping the SL peace, given the direction they are developing the SL world. Philip has said on more than one occasion that he isn't building a game, he's building another country, and most modern countries have some form of self-government. They also gave a nod to Neualtenburg initially by allotting a certain amount of land for a limited period of time to see how the experiment progressed.

On that note, I think that Neualtenburg has set the notion of player-controlled government back a few steps. I admire Ulrika as an obviously smart, talented and well-informed person. However, I don't think she has managed to garner the support necessary for a majority of players to accept self-government as a feasible and attractive alternative to a totalitarian yet benevolent Linden regime. Quite the opposite, in fact, she seems to have polarized the issue based at least in part upon the way she has gone about setting up the "projekt."

Disclaimer: This is all just speculation on my part, obviously, and not something I'm going to argue to the death to defend in this thread. It's based more upon a gut feeling than anything else, so feel free to guffaw and tear it apart, I really won't mind. And for anybody who wants to dredge up any feeble claims of "FIC," I'm about as far from being part of that group as Siberia is from the Bahamas... that is, if there actually were an FIC.

Wrong.

-Ghoti

No definitely not! I don't think anyone in our group wants our forum turned into a government free for all -- it's only for those who are members of the SL group "Neualtenburg Projekt". Check out our forum, you'll see how group-specific it is (planning, ideas, events, laws, constitutions, etc).

Additionally, government in SL extends far beyond our humble project. We need a place where we can compare and contrast LL, our project, Anshe's work, themed builds, and so on.

~Ulrika~

Ulrika, we already have that. Here is how it works:
Feature Suggestions - You propose new "laws" here.
Feature Feedback - The Linden "government" puts "laws" up for debate
Hotline to Linden / Bug Reports / Abuse Reports - You petition the Linden government for redress of grievances.
...
Secret FIC Meetings - WHO TOLD YOU THAT? Uh, I mean... There are no such things. Yeah.

Despite being the opposite of my vote, I like this idea as well.

This kind of poll is win-win for someone like me. I would take enormous pride in having a Government forum created and would gladly take my discussions there. Yet, if that is voted down, it legitimizes the use of the General forum for government discussions.

~Ulrika~

I really don't see how anyone can say that a forum about government in SL is going to "legitimize" it. The N'burg group forum, as others have said, is only for that particular government, not for the discussion of SL governments in general. I think it'd be a great forum to have.

Agreed. This knee-jerk reaction to debates about inworld government is, well, knee-jerk. There's nothing wrong with discussing it. There may very well be something seriously wrong with implementing any form of it, but that's another issue altogether.

On the other hand, if we're making the claim that we can't rationally discuss it without falling into the "trap of goverment", or we can't stop a virtual despot from seizing power over us, and therefore we must avoid discussion all costs (like an alcoholic avoids just one drink), then maybe there's a good point here. Maybe there isn't isn't enough maturity, discipline, and reason here to even consider such issues....

....Naw!!!! I don't believe that for a second. Nobody's seriously proposing that the anti-government forces can't hold their own against despot-bunnies, are they?

I understand what you're saying but here's why that won't work for me. I'm not interested in technical features rather I'm interested in social features.

For instance I don't like the regressive land-tier system -- I want it to be at least flat. Another example is that I feel citizens should be a part of the government -- here one must work for LL to be part of the government. I could go on (and often do).

I seek to create a government within a government much like a city government exists within a state government.

~Ulrika~

Maybe she got voted out again...

Well, we have a dedicated Government Thread. How about that?