The economy is false....

This is rather off the *economy* topic, but..........

As a Chinese-American, I have to step in. Even though there are SL sweatshops, what does this have to do with replacing L$ with prims? It is a bad example to put into the topic and is rather degrading for us Chineses to think that all we do is beg, borrow or steal.

I only know 1 person who is in such an organization, its not something that is happening all over the SL metaverse, just PARTS of it. There are many Chinese entrepreneurs who engage in lawful and creative businesses.

As a capitalist myself, I have several businesses that I operate and I am more than happy with the money I can make each month. Did I beg, borrow, or steal? That comment is on the borderline of racism, but I understand you are just making a point in how *unfair* the economy is.

Now, back to the economy issue.

My business cannot operate if all I can do is to have a prim bonus. The current economy structure WORKS. If someone can't make money? Tough. It takes someone with business savvy to make a buck here on SL, and business here is more than a game. Us business leaders are PROUD of what we had achieved in SL, and a change to shift the economy to a mode where all of us will have to rebuild our empires, is just totally beyond believe.

It is a free economy, let it run itself. There is no PERFECT system where everyone will get rich. Even if everyone gets rich, inflation and such will bring some people richer and some poorer, thus restarting this cycle once again. (This basically concludes that communism really won't work with the human mentality)

And thats my 2 cents.

I agree with Minky who i happen to be business partners with and who is by no means doing what you are saying she works, games and wins for the sole purpose of paying for our sim, for you to even put something like that on one group of ppl is totally immoral.....secondlife=sweat shop you have got to be kidding me......I hope your not american cause thats all this country needs is for more ppl like you to talk shit and cause a huge fricken blowout over a thought u had, perhaps you should keep your racial thinking to yourself.

I can't believe nobody commented on the nasty racial remark u made sooner!!! What the hell are u thinking? I think u owe the Chinese people an apology. I know plenty of Chinese in SL and they are just having fun, some own businesses, etc. If some are being taken advantage of then why not apply your heart and think of a way to help, instead of insulting and bitching.

Behind each avatar is a human being, a spirit - remember that and think before u speak.

love and light
kaia Ennui

Hmm here I am in 'Second Life' whatever that is... What shall I do? I know, I'll make a basic shack, I mean, the ability to build in here seems cool...

Uh oh! I haven't been "good enough" yet to earn my first prim. By tomorrow if I've been good I'll get one prim. Then I can build the left wall. By Christmas I might have the floor in place. Gee this is boring, I'm going to play Sim City instead.

===

Nah, what about we stay as we are?

I wonder how many people on SL have a 6 figure networth.... and how many would be glad to go medival on LL's bottoms if the economy gets screwed up like this.

I will be the first...... no worries.

I am pretty sure Greene didn't intend to be racist with his remarks. Insensitive perhaps.

There is a thread that does discuss instances of people coming across people being paid to play SL as a job. I won't mention their nationalities for fear of being labeled a racist.

/108/05/39940/1.html

SO if i read this right -

SL economy USED to be prim based. That didnt work, so they changed it to stem from Land Ownership.

NOW .. someone new who wasnt here for the Prim based days has decided we should be prim based, becuase its the only thing that makes sense from his veiw point.


*****************************
maybe this is a case ..


Those who dont know the past are doomed to repeat it?

*****************************

In other words, they tried it - it didnt work, sorry.

The economy was not prim based, it was always linden dollars. Only in the past it cost $1 to rez a prim, and $1 a week to keep a prim rezzed. Prims were given out on a freeforall basis, so you could have 1 sq m of land and 15,000 prims within one sim (100% capacity) so long as you paid the L$ rent, which was easy enough for anyone.

Now with the prims tied to land it's more fair, and it's easier to rez your prims cause they no longer cost a buck a time.

Pretty much. About every two-three months someone else suggests we return to the prim system.

The response from those who were there the first time is always the same.

But the concept of the OP is to remove the land based connection to prims.

Thus resulting in a situation like has all ready been described "like the old days"

Kind of think anyone who has been here only a relatively short should listen to the people who have been here a longer. Unless they have some Truly novel idea.

Kind of like all of life.


******************
I would propose we instead base an economic system on **"BLING"** becuase .. well .. its shiny.

By the way, I got linked to this today from Fark... Might be where Green is getting some of his claims:

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3141815

Very good article reitsuki. Unfortunately for Greene, there is nothing showing how they would be able to farm SL. So until that fact is stated and discovered, I will continue to warn Greene to watch what he says without evidence to back it up. SL is not like those other games. if you want to get rich off of SL, just follow anshe chung around for a while.
Its almost like farming the game, but from more of a back room white collar corporate part of the game. So it is actually legal, and some people get some good out of it.

I apologize for my insensitive remarks, my only point was where the folks I've met live presently (in PRC) - nothing racial was intended, just the facts as I know them.

Obviously playing a computer game or any other online activity for hours on end is not too taxing, though working conditions my vary and repetitive motion syndrome, carpal tunnel syndrome, or other eyesight related injuries are possible - but this was not my point either.

I am not proposing a return to the previous prim-based system used before the present system. In fact I was just pointing out that having an economy based on Linden $s that is disconnected from the primary scarce resource (prim capacity) is a false economy.

This promotes endless speculation about whether LL will release new land, how it will be valued, how much it is worth, etc. It also puts pressure on anyone to explain the ups and downs in the value of the Linden $ versus other hard currencies. These uncertainties exist because there is no direct linkage between computing capacity (prims) and the inworld currency (Linden $s).

Additionally this means that inworld prices have no direct correlation to real value. This leads to terrible inefficiencies and waste of prim capacity, which translates directly into a diminished quality of service for each of us alike inworld - evidenced by sim lag, top of the hour lag, etc.

There are also terrible inequities with the present, derived value land approach for determining prim pricing. Since the ratio of prims to land is constant at 0.23 it means that land barons purchase prim capacity more cheaply than the average inworld resident. In fact, LL is leaving huge amounts of money on the table by selling prims at a discount to large land purchasers who then arbitrage the difference to unsuspecting inworld residents.

Yes, everyone who owns land gets the same number of prims per square meter (horizontal equity), but we all pay different amounts per prim (vertical equity). Auctions were an indirect attempt to determine prim pricing, but now LL is getting out of the retail side and focusing entirely on wholesale discounts to large purchasers. That makes us more different than alike when it comes to what we pay for the same computing resource (expressed as "prims" inworld). It also implies diminished margins for additional computing resources at the margin for LL - which may contribute to fewer services inworld... That would be a dangerous spiral for all of us.

Why shouldn't prim pricing be determined inworld without a connection to land? Why can't someone with land sell or lease their excess prim capacity? Two things: (1) dynamic inworld pricing for prims - a secondary market if you will, similar to land sales; and (2) the tools to add or subtract prim capacity from land. LL can still offer land with a fixed, even constant supply of prim capacity as is done presently. They can even require that land which is sold carries a minimum capacity with it, as is presently done.

One possible approach may be to adopt a "gold standard" approach - a Linden $-based price for prim capacity that everyone pays. This seems to be what was tried in the past, and to which noone seems to have any interest in returning for all the reasons stated.

Another is to have prim capacity priced inworld based on a willingness to pay, via a secondary market. The computing capacity is fixed at any given moment, and can be expressed in terms of prim capacity. If we buy and sell prim capacity between ourselves inworld then we determine the value of prim usage. As the price for prim capacity rises LL can add addtitional computer resources to lower the price and extend the world without guessing land demand, sim lag, or other quality of service issues. We all may learn that prim usage requires a different sort of computer resource, such as vertical scaling versus the present horizontal scaling used by LL.

If prim capacity can be traded via a secondary market then tier payments can be made more granular as well. If tier followed prim usage, not just prim capacity as is presently the case, then computing resources would be put to the most valuable inworld use - potentially increasing quality of service (reduced lag, etc.) and encourage the most valuable activities among inworld residents whether thats building, modeling, scripting, dancing, or business.

I'm not proposing that anyone be paid with prims, or that prims are allocated/rationed/etc. I'm simply seeking to make Linden $ a meaningful currency of exchange that works inworld to improve quality of service for all of us. Its a classic example of Adam Smith's capitalist ideal called the "invisible hand".

More thoughts? Other ideas, proposals?

versus vertical scale!

Why can't a sim scale vertically to handle more prims? Does this relate to the present system architecture? Of course it does...

So, if a real economy is required for the success of SL maybe vertical scaling should be implemented?

But it doesn't change the fact that the present economy is false if the currency is not tied to the critical resource value, either inworld or otherwise.

And thanks for getting what I'm talking about!!!!

Thanks for your comments Loki!!! In your example the price of prim capacity was fixed, and not dynamic - so the first prim used cost the same as the last prim used, effectively a "prim grab". Not unlike human nature but not a great incentive system!

What if the price per prim capacity "floats"? Read on....

I apologize for my insensitive remarks, my only point was where the folks I've met live presently (in PRC) - nothing racial was intended, just the facts as I know them.

Obviously playing a computer game or any other online activity for hours on end is not too taxing, though working conditions my vary and repetitive motion syndrome, carpal tunnel syndrome, or other eyesight related injuries are possible - but this was not my point either.

I am not proposing a return to the previous prim-based system used before the present system. In fact I was just pointing out that having an economy based on Linden $s that is disconnected from the primary scarce resource (prim capacity) is a false economy.

This promotes endless speculation about whether LL will release new land, how it will be valued, how much it is worth, etc. It also puts pressure on anyone to explain the ups and downs in the value of the Linden $ versus other hard currencies. These uncertainties exist because there is no direct linkage between computing capacity (prims) and the inworld currency (Linden $s).

Additionally this means that inworld prices have no direct correlation to real value. This leads to terrible inefficiencies and waste of prim capacity, which translates directly into a diminished quality of service for each of us alike inworld - evidenced by sim lag, top of the hour lag, etc.

There are also terrible inequities with the present, derived value land approach for determining prim pricing. Since the ratio of prims to land is constant at 0.23 it means that land barons purchase prim capacity more cheaply than the average inworld resident. In fact, LL is leaving huge amounts of money on the table by selling prims at a discount to large land purchasers who then arbitrage the difference to unsuspecting inworld residents.

Yes, everyone who owns land gets the same number of prims per square meter (horizontal equity), but we all pay different amounts per prim (vertical equity). Auctions were an indirect attempt to determine prim pricing, but now LL is getting out of the retail side and focusing entirely on wholesale discounts to large purchasers. That makes us more different than alike when it comes to what we pay for the same computing resource (expressed as "prims" inworld). It also implies diminished margins for additional computing resources at the margin for LL - which may contribute to fewer services inworld... That would be a dangerous spiral for all of us.

Why shouldn't prim pricing be determined inworld without a connection to land? Why can't someone with land sell or lease their excess prim capacity? Two things: (1) dynamic inworld pricing for prims - a secondary market if you will, similar to land sales; and (2) the tools to add or subtract prim capacity from land. LL can still offer land with a fixed, even constant supply of prim capacity as is done presently. They can even require that land which is sold carries a minimum capacity with it, as is presently done.

One possible approach may be to adopt a "gold standard" approach - a Linden $-based price for prim capacity that everyone pays. This seems to be what was tried in the past, and to which noone seems to have any interest in returning for all the reasons stated.

Another is to have prim capacity priced inworld based on a willingness to pay, via a secondary market. The computing capacity is fixed at any given moment, and can be expressed in terms of prim capacity. If we buy and sell prim capacity between ourselves inworld then we determine the value of prim usage. As the price for prim capacity rises LL can add addtitional computer resources to lower the price and extend the world without guessing land demand, sim lag, or other quality of service issues. We all may learn that prim usage requires a different sort of computer resource, such as vertical scaling versus the present horizontal scaling used by LL.

If prim capacity can be traded via a secondary market then tier payments can be made more granular as well. If tier followed prim usage, not just prim capacity as is presently the case, then computing resources would be put to the most valuable inworld use - potentially increasing quality of service (reduced lag, etc.) and encourage the most valuable activities among inworld residents whether thats building, modeling, scripting, dancing, or business.

I'm not proposing that anyone be paid with prims, or that prims are allocated/rationed/etc. I'm simply seeking to make Linden $ a meaningful currency of exchange that works inworld to improve quality of service for all of us. Its a classic example of Adam Smith's capitalist ideal called the "invisible hand".

More thoughts? Other ideas, proposals?

I want to apologize again for any offense my remarks in this post may have caused. I do not associate any of the behavior I cite in my post with specific national or racial characteristics; rather, to me it is simply a consequence of the incentive system built into SL at present.

Several folks have sought specific proof for my facts, and have let me know directly how upsetting my apparent insensitivity can be to them personally. Some have accused me of racist remarks - which I strongly deny. I'm an international business-person in RL so I have the utmost respect for all people, cultures, and ethnic backgrounds.

I have made a personal choice not to report or identify any of the individuals involved - but that does not satisfy my moral obligation to raise the issue in a forum such as this where we all may consider alternatives to these unintended consequences of our collective "fun".

My evidence is the following:

(1) http://secondlife.blogs.com/nwn/2005/03/sweating_the_de.html

I have met the subject of this article inworld and she is one of my best friends online. I have been introduced to two others from her "company" and I keep in touch with all of them on a regular basis. I am asked for specific $L help from time to time and I have tried to help them raise money to meet their daily quotas.

(2) other Forum references and witness are offered by Anshe Chung, among others

(3) http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=0&cId=3141815

My example was not to make this a bigger deal than it is - rather to make a moral point for the consideration of other alternatives to the present incentive system in SL.

As always, I appreciate your posts and additional feedback.

I think this is a bad idea.

I would explain why, but it's the same sort of explanation I would give trying to explain to a person that SL is not a game, but is in fact a replacement for the Internet.

then why shouldn't the business model for Linden Labs look like an ISP?

In that case we would have shared resources on the network (subject to SLA), guaranteed bandwidth (at least minimums), and unlimited computing power in a local client or server.

Unfortunately this is not the case - it is completely unbundled in SL. The only thing we purchase from the service provider is shared resources on the network, more like timeshare.

In as much as prim capacity is limited to the computing resources deployed by LL then its a zero-sum game - whatever I get is taken from someone else, and vice versa. You can keep expanding the model out but any inefficiencies only grow larger (cumulatively) as there are no horizontal economies of scale to realize. And a fixed/artificial inworld currency value only exacerbates the problem.

On the other hand, if prim capacity is linked to Linden $s and the competition inworld for prims grows such that the price per prim increases, then LL may be able to invest in vertical scaling resources, such as multi-core, MPP, or other hyper-threaded alternatives that offer increasing scale economies, including in memory (vs database) and fault-tolerant platforms.

Think of a richer environment per square meter, think of more avatars in the same space, think of more complex scripts based on event-driven architecture, think up not out...

Think about how we can keep LL in business long enough to have a platform that might resemble a commercial grid for shared network-based services, and then you've got the next Internet.

Thoughts, comments?

see the following for more info:

/130/95/52799/2.html#post559149

Greene , I do have a comment.

As a long time player in another game,

I look at what long time players here say with a lot of respect. The "been there, done that" experience factor is actually a very valuable thing.

My opinion is if in MAY 2006 you still feel this way about Prims and economy, Maybe ill be more inclined to listen.

Right now I just cant shake the -- well look at all the 'haves' , how do we change this situation, and make it more fair for the new person. -- feeling all of this gives me. And like someoen said, this reads of FAR too much marketing gooblygook. It reads liek a sales brochure.

Well I have no idea how you think using prims as an incentive is good. It is like trying to use cookie dough in a bakery as currency. You don't use part of your ingredients for currency. You are wanting cookie dough to be awarded to certain bakeries as Linden decides they deserve this dough. They then are able to make cookies to just give out, so that Linden sees them worthy of more cookie dough. That is a nightmare of an idea. It just doesn't make sense. It is true that prims are a resource, but why would you want to use the resource as actual currency in a Communist system. Scarce valuable resourcees have better uses than currency. Gold for instance is wasted if only used to make coins. There are so many uses for this scarce resource, that it is a shame when coins are made from it. The currency in SL is very real. The currency has a $US value. That makes $L as real as any RL country's currency.

Now about verticle scalability. Experience on a technical system will always be equal to the limitations of the system. If you want a better experience, you always have to buy something that is better to get that experience. Your new video card for fast and amazing graphics is not free. No one will just give you better technology for free including when you are paying for it indierectly in a game. If you want linden to have more resources per sim to handle more prims, then you have to be prepared to pay the higher land tier costs and sign up fees that follow. The money has to come from somewhere, and those at Linden have to be able to use their profits to feed themselves to continue supporting a game like SL. If you wonder why the world grows horizontally, then ask yourself why land continues to be auctioned off. Someone is willing to pay the money for a sim that has all the current limitations. As long as someone is willing to support cost of growing horizontally, I'm sure SL will grow horizontally.

Anarchists have dreamed of an economy without currency since the beginning of time. Its even been tried. What happens is that in the absence of a currency, other things take the place of currency. Just about anything that is rare will work, but usually it turns out to be something that a sector of the economy needs. Such as cigarettes.

In prison systems that don't allow inmates to have money in their possession, cigarettes become money. They are valuable even to non-smokers, because they can be traded for other things, because everyone knows that they will be able to trade them.

The end result of anarchistic abolition of money is always injustice. When cigarettes become currency, the economy is exploiting the needs of smokers. Smokers become poor, and tobacco farmers become rich. That is even less fair than ambitious people becoming rich and lazy people becoming poor. (NOT saying that poor people are lazy, but that lazy people are usually poorer than hard workers.)


The concept of money is the fairest basis for an economy, because it has the same value to everyone -- it is not more useful to one person and less useful to someone else, becuase it must be traded for something else in order to be of any use.

In SL, not everyone values prims as much as everyone else. If prims are money, then builders and craftsmen are at a disadvantage, because they need prims to do what they want to do, while socializers and explorers could care less about prims because they don't need them


Buster

I had told Greene, that if he were to bring hard evidence and a valid article to the forums or to me to back up his claim of forign nationals working in SL, I would issue a formal apology for my calling him racist for his remarks, and saying things without backing them up.

These articles linked to by Greene, are by 2 people I fully trust. Hamlet linden had actually written 4 articles on me last year on my original character concerning my times in the war, and my chalenges of recovery in RL and SL. I trust hamlets stories to the fullest extent. I also trust Anshes stories because of her status in SL. Though I loath the fact of her power, many have come and go, and this is her time now.

So as I promised Greene, I apologize for my prior words, and I now stand behind you in this issue. I had feared something like this would happen in SL, but never thought it was possible since SL isn't like the other MMORPG's where they can just write macros to battle automatically, and just have people watch the characters.

Obviously it looks like it has happened anyways, and if these Game Bosses teach these people well enough about the game, we may have a new Cartel in SL working for one main RL boss. Then we will have to wonder where our L$ goes when we buy something.

You have my sincere apology Greene, and I thank you for bringing these articles to our attention. I will continue to be vigilent and keep a lookout for any suspicious characters.