The economy is false....

Economic incentives have moral implications as well as financial ones - the latter being the main point of this post. Every economic system has distributive effects which may be separated into horizontal (equals treated equally) and vertical (differences treated differently) equity incentives.

The present practice of divvying up prims at a constant ratio to land (sq meters) is fair in one sense (treats everyone the same) but unfair in another important way (lets some pay far less for prims than others). This second, more important aspect is vital to LL financial success as well as our in-world experience (quality of service).

The present incentive system focuses on a currency and an exchange ratio that is managed, or in many respects artificial since it is not tied directly to computing capacity, or prims. The ability to trade prims separate from "land"; that is, to price prim capacity in Lindens and to make them portable across property lines or sims would align the incentive system with the scarcest resource (computing capacity), let residents signal LL on how SL should be developed through behavior, and make the Linden currency a "hard" currency less likely to be farmed - in FL, China or anyplace.

Linden currency farming, regardless of the moral implications, is a financial drain on LL (excess computing capacity), on residents (removes currency from circulation in-world), and exaggerates/distorts in-world economic statistics which may be used to determine future SL development efforts or services from LL and others. As a metaphor you can think of it as a giant siphon on our air supply into space.

Is this more straightforward?


What if prim capacity were the reward and not L cash? How many griefers and abuse cases are simply driven by boredom? Why shouldn't prims be awarded for good behavior, and taken away for bad behavior - including sandbox privileges?

The whole economy, including poorly designed incentive systems like the present reputation system, doesn't work because its not based on the single scarcest resource: prims (computing capacity). Linden cash is virtually unlimited in supply, so a stipend or a stipend based on behavior doesn't really matter if its not fixed to an absolute value in the scarcest critical resource. To make a poor metaphor - its not the depth of the ocean that matters, its the amount of air on the surface where the boats float that does.

Land is a poor proxy for prims since the number of prims is fixed per land increment. An unlimited supply of cash doesn't work since there are no scale economies to owning land/prims. Therefore any incentive system is flawed, including the reputation system.


Farming in general...
There are Chinese nationals working online in SL to accumulate Lindens for their their bosses. No kidding - the minimum take is $1,000 L per Avatar per day so that they can sell the Lindens for US Dollars. Beg, borrow, steal, or win - any method is used since these are poor kids just 12 and 13 who are put to work this way. Is that the kind of incentive system we want to enable or protect?

Why shouldn't someone be able to concentrate prims on any size parcel of land? Why shouldn't prims be bought and sold separately, above a basic minimum floor per parcel of land? Why shouldn't prims be allocated to each new player instead of Linden cash? Why couldn't all the land be held in common, instead of just sandboxes?

An artificial, or managed, exchange rate doesn't resolve the scarce resource issue - it only complicates it. And all the incentive systems designed around a false currency produce inaccurate effects; for instance, reputation-based stipends, land auctions, work/build vs. play, etc. Why does SL look to newbies like a series of empty buildings? Is this simply a lot of unused computing capacity, or is everyone maxed out on prim usage in every plot? Why shouldn't landowners be paid for excess prims that are "loaned" to the sandboxes?

What a lot people seem to be talking about is a dispute resolution process or legal framework - not an incentive system. Since there are no political entities in SL we presently confer those duties on the Lindens, but I'm not so sure they ever intended to perform these. They may be waiting to see what kind of political systems emerge, or should we all simply elect Anshe to represent us and provide those services?

Other thoughts? Come on, I'm listening....

Well, one problem with that system is that prims are limited to the region because the region is powered by one computer. More than 15,000 (and in many cases less than that) will cause lag problems. So if there are a lot of prim-rich players in any single region, that region crawls to a halt. That's why prims are tied to land.

Say what?? Chineses sweat shops where the poor are forced to dance at clubs all day in the hope of winning the $10 raffle ball????

$1000 a day you say?

That's amaaaaaazing!

So....

What proof do you have of these "Chinese Nationals," and where are they? a patern like that in SL would easily be discovered. Lets see.... a hundred users from the same location or within 20 miles of each other? I would put up the red flag. Anyways, until you can show me hard evidence and proof of the chinese farming the game, I think you should watch what you say, and who you point the finger at.

What if I told you that I have 300 ghetto elementary school drop outs from alabama doing the same thing for me? would you believe that? Of course you wouldn't, because there is no way you could prove it. Nationality has nothing to do with it, and at this point, I would label you as racist against the chinese, as you specifically pointed them out and labeled and stereotyped them as immoral theives and cheaters.

So did I get my point accross? Good. Now continue with your useless thread.

We can't seriously be talking about limiting customer experience to IT?

IT therefore I am? Horizontal scaling makes sense for a prototype, but vertical scaling makes a better business.

Time to get a new achitecture if this one is not scalable, wouldn't you think? A small problem like lag might be a major pain if SL ever became popular.

Other thoughts?

Wow, I get to punch you twice in 5 minutes!

Who in here thinks that SL is not popular? Hands? Anyone?

The vote is official Greene, your an idiot.

You're a funny person - very contentious.

My point is simple - SL was not created for 3k or 4k users; its customer base will need to expand dramatically to support a business funded with venture capital. So think about sharing the system with 60k concurrent users as a start...

Punching me in the face is a foolish metaphor if you cannot see me bleed.

I agree that work in SL is trivial by most standards, but these kids are forced to spend long periods of time hunting for L's without any real support. They hang out in Mature areas pretending to be older and simply wander around stuck in their own online incompetence, mostly due to language barriers.

Its easy to dismiss, but its real and a part of the incentive system we help create and participate in morally.

I prefer not to name call, or defend myself against racist claims online.

I have proof and can name the users, but does that really help them or resolve any moral issue we share by participating in SL, even for fun?

Jeeesskkaaaaaa..... o.o

So lets totally destroy all incentive for content creators -- I.E money. and replace it with Prim rights?

Is this what is being suggested?

This seems totally crazed.

What good are prims without Textures, Scripts, clothing for Avs, Skins, Hair, Atachments, Entertainment value

I can see it now ..

"Gee thats a really fancy Box" ..
"Thanks i saved up my Prim stipend for weeks"

"Does it do anything?'
"Nope my scripter quit for another game where he might make money"

An open market for prims would enable builders to do more, not less.

Land is a poor proxy since the number of prims/plot size are a fixed ratio and the land market is relatively illiquid due to tier.

The cross-subsidy of land owners to landless builders is not scalable or sustainable based on a false currency.

An incentive system that was based on accumulating prims instead of cash would encourage good community behavior and reward builders, not penalize them.

I disagree it seems to base all asumptions that Second Life is only about Building Objects.

And that the only commodities are prims.

If this *isn't* a troll, I would ike to see some backup on this.

It sounds inflammatory and slightly racist to me (in that these kinds of rumors are usually about as real as the microwaved cat stories).

If it was a joke, it was too subtle for me.

.

So what you're saying is we need to shift the marketing paradigm in order to fulfill our awesome potential as a mass-market mover?



I can do bullshit marketing speak too!

LF

Thats not the way it would work, but its an interesting example. Since prims are assets which could be controlled by users in SL then scripters/builders/modelers could easily control more and more of how prims are used under a system which was not based on land.

What I'm proposing would take nothing away, just add a foundation to what's already here.

Other ideas?

How does LL make any money on a system like this? ATM they are charging tier for land use, people need land for prims. Prims are tied to simulator resources, what good would 30,000 prims be to someone who doesnt own land?

What incentive is there for commerce? Are you propsing people buy goods (prims) with more prims?

What incentive is there for creators? Prims?

As far as the Chinese nationals dancing for $1000L a day, where can I apply for this job, and how is anyone making money off of them? Even if it where true, wouldn't that be a much better job for them then working in a field or whore house?

Because you seem to be quite new to SL, I will cut you a little slack for NOT NOTICING THIS ON THE HOME PAGE OF SL!
Oh... Look! its the population count of SL! I think we are well over your margin Greene, and going strong! Care to comment again? Here I attached a screen shot I just took of the SL home page 5 min ago!

Look at the red circles:

Currency would be tied to prims if they were separable from Land and offered for sale or purchase in $Ls.

Tiers in US$ or other national currencies could be tied to prim holdings, similar to land but more efficient for budgeting computer infrastructure.

Prims could be accumulated and parceled out in different concentrations onto land if the holder wished to sell land for higher prices, or in lower concentrations for land purchasers who wanted cheaper land.

As an asset, prims could be sold or leased at will. Prim holders could decide whether more or less land should be used with prim capacity, similar to what Anshe does now. But instead of Linden-based discounts for larger land parcels the price of prims would be determined on the open market within SL in finer granules than sq. meters.

An incentive system that is built on prim capacity let users decide whether islands, mainland, infrastructure, stores, houses, furniture, scripts, models, or casinos are the right way to build the world. Whether thats implemented as single servers with multiple CPUs for vertical scaling or multiple servers with single CPUs is the real Linden business, not land development, utopian economies, or benevolent societies.

Currency would still be used to buy and sell prims (without land attached). In world currency would work fine as long as it could be used to buy and sell prims. Money/currency would be the fluid part of the incentive system that is based on prims instead of land, as is presently the case. But since it is tied to the actual scarce resource - prims, then all pricing would be more efficient and more relevant for avoiding lag, etc.

The most obvious fix would be the present Reputation system, if the reward was prim-based versus currency/stipend. Actual prims don't need to be awarded but prim privileges could be attained (or taken away) at certain point levels.

To your last point, I do recognize tongue in cheek but there's a little more to it morally.

The thing to remember is that each server can only handle 15,000 prims. That number may rise in time as technology advances, but for now, its a fact of life. It is simply a limitation of the program.

Prims used to be taxed. There was no fixed amount based on land holding. Everyone in the sim had to share the total 10,000 prims (15000 now, we have advanced) per sim.

Here is where that was a problem. Rich players could afford to spend the L$1000's of tax money to simply rez 9500 prims, leaving 500 total use for everyone else in the sim. The sim would be full, no one could build until some prims were deleted.

The first place I lived was Da Boom. Sim prim use was always at 98% - 100%. The rich land owners kept prims regulated, they purposely rezzed prims they didnt need to have control over who was able to build. I saw saw conversations like, "ok, I will delete 40 prims so you can build a new bed". It got to the point I could never build anything on my own land. I moved.

It was also a grief tool. A prim hog would decide he wanted to own a sim and buy a little plot and just bury 9900 prims under his land. No one could build and move in frustration. The prim hog would simply buy the land as they left. There were no tiers, just taxes and land was plentiful. Like I said, it was a different time.

So anyway, thats why the prims are tied to land now. A sim can handle 15000 prims max and the prim to land is a ratio. You are always guarenteed the prim allotment for your size of land. Prim to land ratio on the surface doesnt seem fair, but it is extremely fair. If you buy 512m land, you always have that 117 prim use. If you buy an extra 512m land, you will always have that 117 prim use. No one can rez more prims than they are allowed and prevent you from using your allotment.

If you decide that prims are a bonus and someone should get more prims to use, those prims have to come from somewhere, someone else will be denied their amount they pay for in tier.

That would be about 1,500 or so based on your screenshot.

Its nice that 34,000 are registered but these are not concurrent users, which in the services business is everything. I could bore you Games with tidbits like FASB96 and other stuff but my principle point still stands - the bulk of current and recurring revenues is presently based on an inworld population of between 1,500 and 4,000 unique? users.

Thats not "popular" in the venture capital/private equity world - and its certainly not enough to create a sustainable business. I know you're hellbent on making look like an idiot but please respect my right to have an opinion that's different from yours.

Can we agree to differ on this without additional posts to the forum? Besides, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts the main question - what should the incentive system be in SL that meets everyone's needs?

I'm not sure I'm getting what this is all about, *scoots away with wooden stick*



And if the post was originally about 'Chinese Nationals sweat shops' why was this used?

I have a rough idea of what Greene is saying and I agree it would be nice to be able to earn extra prims or to even buy them independant of the land you own but can something like that actually be implimented? 15,000 prims in a simulator rezzed would grind it to a halt, you could not bring any prims or attachements with you, etc that is why there is usually a percentage of Govenor Linden land in each sim. The limitations of the system would result in each sim becoming its own miro economy because prims cannot cross sim borders. That 30 prim seaplane does not move from one sim to another, it is derezzed and rerezzed in the new sim it flys to, the prims never leave the sim. The only place a prim economy might work is in private sims but again, it is limited to the resourses of the single sim, you cannot import nor export prims. You can transport a prim across a sim border but as it moves it subtracts from the unused prim pool of the sim it moves into and returnes the prim resourse to the sim it leaves.

Wthout the ability to transfer prim resources from areas of supply to areas of demand the sims would represent isolated economic islands with no room to grow. Isolated city states that trade between them would be impossible because the currency cannot leave the border. With SL, you have a sort of technology dictated form of communism dealing with land and prims. If you can figure out the technology to transfer prim resources from one sim to another, be sure and let LL know.

I'll flag in a cascade to management and make it my primary action item !

There are Chinese nationals working online in SL to accumulate Lindens for their their bosses. No kidding - the minimum take is $1,000 L per Avatar per day so that they can sell the Lindens for US Dollars. Beg, borrow, steal, or win - any method is used since these are poor kids just 12 and 13 who are put to work this way. Is that the kind of incentive system we want to enable or protect?



what has it got to do with CHINESE, hey Keep ur racist thinking to urself .IM a CHinses and i dare say there are LOADS of peeps Doing just that. SO Get Lost.I pay To pLAY and I can NAME LOts of NON chinese making MOney to change for USD.