Vote on prop 695: 1.8 = 3 major features, and that's it.

Okay, seriously though. Havok2 has been in development longer than SL has been live, and is a running joke within the community. HTML on a prim is vaporware, barely mentioned anymore by devs. Mono is juicy, but also perpetually missing. These three features will allegedly rock the proverbial socks, but we don't get any of it. And at this rate, we WON'T get any of it, as long as devs each get their own separate pet project to ramrod into the main development trunk.

Therefore, I propose that you limit your work of your devs to those three projects. No, we don't need a new type of pants. We don't need swirling particle doodads. We don't even need bloody new scripting bits. We NEED Mono, Havok2, and HTML. Do it.

LF

edit for prop URL: http://secondlife.com/vote/index.php?get_id=695

OK, Havk 2 and HTML are obvious...

Mono in SL?
I had that IRL when I was younger and it knocked me FLAT on my back for two weeks!
Coupled with a condition I have (Mitochondriasis), it was most unfun, so why would I want it in SL?

Seriously, what is MONO in the SL context?

I'm not a programmer, so I could be wrong...

But basically, MONO is a runtime environment that lets you (in theory) run any programming language you want and get the same result.

Also, it has the side benefit of being a ton faster than the current LSL virtual machine.

So, you get two (eventual) features:

1) The ability to program things in SL in any programming language supported by Mono (C++, Java, whatever) instead of LSL

2) LSL and other scripts will run (allegedly) up to 100 times faster than now, meaning less resources are wasted, meaning sims run a lot faster.

It's a Big Deal, and scripters have been chomping at the bit at that since it was announced.

Lf

Count my votes as applied!

I've got mixed feelings about it, LF.

On the one hand - you're absolutely right. These are features that have been promised for quite a long time, and so far we (residents) don't have much to show for it other than vapor.

But - I seem to remember a while back when Linden went thru a period of focusing on new features, and cast bug fixing off to the wind. We all complained - *loudly* - that Linden should stop working on all these crazy new features, and focus on getting the product more stable.

So they did.

Now, its like that's unacceptable - and they should be focusing on features instead. I feel like we've gone full circle.

Are we placing Linden into a no-win situation here with our expectations?

I'm totally ignorant of all three of these things, but I voted for this because I'm a) tired of hearing pple complain that they aren't there; b) excited to see what they do because to hear pple talk, they are like the coming of a 2nd God; and c) they may take care of bugs already in the system or others that will crop up, or prevent new bugs from happening *swats down the AO bug crawling on her AV's pants leg* (also, friend told me WoW has Havok2 or 3?? and it's the "most beautiful virtual reality [he's] ever seen".) Possible problem: will these outdate LLs current minimum spec requirements? Should I wait to buy a new computer until 1.8 seems certain, or slowly start updating now?

havok 2 need its own update reason being is you need the team to devote to that engine implament so the number of bugs will be minimized at launch.

Unless I misunderstand LF's original post, he does not ask that LL stop bugfixes, but that he would rather these three features occupy LL's feature focus for the next version. We received a lot of features in 1.7 that, though neato-keen and very handy, do not outweigh the power that the three mentioned features would provide to the SL environment.

If I understand the proposition correctly, it is suggesting that LL pull these three features to the top of the "new feature priority list" and encourage their programmers to work on these features and not pet projects of their own.

Good points, Travis, but I would posit that a lot of the bugs introduced lately have been a direct result of devs having their own little projects to smash into the main trunk.

Good example: Quicktime videos. When that came out, it initially was buggy, rarely worked right, and generally made the client a mess until it was fixed in later patches. Why did they add video to 1.6? because they had a new developer whos expertise (and hence introductory pet project) was to add it into SL. As a result, it was pretty obviously hacked in (only one video per plot, must have quicktime installed, spotty script support).

I imagine HUD attachments are someone else's pet project, as they don't have the full feature set of the rest of the game (no llSetText, for example... why?).

And so on. Furthermore, it's getting extremely tiring hearing about new features in town halls and in developer comments on the forums about "this feature" or "that feature" that is nearing completion, and "will be" in 1.x.... and then is quietly removed from the point release for "time constraint" reasons.

Seriously, I've been waiting for Havok2 to be put into SL since I was a newbie in 2003. After playing Garry's Mod for Half Life 2, I wanted it even more (seriously, rope physics, ragdolls, and much better collision detection... drool). And yet they consistently move it back for one reason or another.

At one point, Havok 1.0 was THE physics engine... in 2002. Since then, life has moved on. I understand it's a massive undertaking, but it's also a pretty freaking big deal as far as the world is concerned (for one, Havok 1.0 is obviously ill-equipped to handle vehicle transferring between sims).

I have a feeling though that these projects will be integrated into SL, but again, half-assedly. Havok 2.0 will be under-the-hood improvements that simply don't break anyting, rather than adding new features. HTML on a prim will work like Quicktime, where one page per plot will be visible (thus making a lot of ideas impossible). Mono will probably end up breaking the sims even more than they are today.

But alas, I can dream, cant I?

LF

If World of Warcraft has the Havok engine, they sure don't utilize it at all. WoW has no physics system of any worth (no collision detection, no ragdoll physics, etc.). While a very beautiful game, it just doesn't have any rigid body collision (except from the terrain itself, which is probably BSP-based or something similar).

finally, Havok2, Mono, and HTML-on-a-prim won't increase load on your client. If anything, they may reduce it (havok2 could lower the amount of bandwidth and calculations required by the client for movement, for instance, or Mono could make a tweaker API for your client that would let it run smoother, or something).

Well, that about takes care of my concerns rather nicely

These 3 features *are* the ones that we all would benefit from the most. I have my own pet features that are important to me - but frankly, I have to admit these take precedence.

Throwing some votes at it!

I dont think you will get all three, but the concierge meeting which i got a transcript to from the anouncements forum was very interesting

Ian Linden: havok2 is one of our big projects right now
Ian Linden: since we wanted it out for 1.7
Ian Linden: it's still coming along nively
Ian Linden: nicely
Ian Linden: HTML on a prim is into the "next thing" category, so a
little farther out
Ian Linden: new rendering system is still way out there, as we've slowed
down on that
Ian Linden: to fix problems w/ the current version
Ian Linden: mono is anybody's guess
Ian Linden: we have a working prototype
Ian Linden: but it's going to take a while to hammer out the bugs and
get the performance where we want it
Ian Linden: all of these thing, ultimately, we come out when they're done
Ian Linden: we've had poor luck giving out release dates in the past
Ian Linden: so I won't embarass myself by repeating past mistakes

yeah, they've said all that before, every version since 1.0, in fact.

At some point the patience of even the most rabid fanboy is tested.

LF

Frankly, each of those tasks is rather large by themselves. I would much rather see these big three solved one at a time, with some of the smaller tasks as they become easy to implement. With the Havoc 2 engine, if it is good enough, it may be a good one to start using first, unless there is enough motivation to go straight to Havoc 3, at which case, it may be more feasible to work with either of the other two.

At any rate, your proposal to have the Lindens work on these big projects exclusively does not allow for responses to problems that can be solved much faster and satisfy more people in the meantime. If you really want to support these "big thing" features, pick the one you want done first, get others to speak up for it, and stop wasting time trying to ask for everything at once.

Annnnd while I'm at it, here are the propositions for these features, related propositions, and attached discussions where available.

Havok 2: Proposition 4 - (Discussion) - Currently in development.
And for other engines:
Havok 3: Proposition 198 - (Discussion)
NovodeX w/ PPU Support: Proposition 46 - (Discussion) Rejected because "For now, we're too far down the road with Havok 2 for it to make sense to switch to a new physics engine."
Agiea PhysX: Proposition 425 - No discussion attached, but after looking through the discussion in prop 46, I can't help but think this is just a repeat of that one.
---
"Java/Internet Media on a Prim": Proposition 63 - (discussion) - Doesn't seem so popular with only 3 votes. I felt sure there was another proposition on this matter, but I failed to locate it.
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I'd put up a link about MONO, but I failed to locate any propositions for it and personally don't feel like making the proposition myself. Unless someone has offered feedback in the Voting tool for it, it makes no sense to go complaining to the Lindens about the lack of it now.

I'm not enough of a veteran to add more than a couple small points to this thread, that being said, here they are:


1) Lets get them to fix 1.7 first.

2) While I completely understand your frustration, if you want this to be taken seriously, you should change the language to be more point of fact.

The problem is they've been working on Havok2, by itself, for over 2 years now. That's an eternity in a product's development cycle. It's borderline comical as to how long it's taking to even get basic functionality in.

If it takes them this long to implement EVERY major feature (and even some minor ones... shift-drag took 3 years to get in there), we'll have HTML sometime after 2012, and Mono integration, to quote Eggy, "sometime after the heat death of the universe".

I can understand delays, but I mean come on. If it's not going well, suck it up and cancel development. Constantly pushing major upgrades to the client farther back makes people lose faith in the product, and adds the hint of incompetence into the air.

Prove me wrong, get these damned features up and running.

LF

After being burned again and again by broken promises from developers, I find it less stressful to just pretend that new features are never announced. That way, if the new features never show up, I'm not disappointed, and if they do show up, I'm pleasantly surprised.

If it's not downloading to my computer right now, it's vaporware. To take any other view is just asking for a letdown these days.

I have to say after seeing how bad the last 3 releases went I don't think LL should try to launch all 3 of those at once.
Mono is likely to break a lot of shit, and so is Havok2. I sincerely hope we do not have to suffer the combined effects of both.

Or.... maximum fun -- release all 3 and wipe the grid..

Then watch the forums splode!

(And in the distance on a deserted sim, will come forth a solitary giggle.......)

One of my personal slants are the minor features that don't require all that much devtime, but should be handled for fine-tuning of what currently exists. I will repeatedly emphasize how much things like:

1. Region autocomplete
   

1. Clear Cache button
   

1. new way to Open boxes
   

mean to me. And for those Resis new to SL who never had to put up with the old way, I can tale some very sad tales indeed.

I surely do want these major features. I sure do. But from what I know, LL has a wealth of versatile, diverse talents with different specialities. Not everyone is a physics buff—and it's clearly stated that Mono has been like a big bag of Babbage's.

So what next?

I think Eggy is optimistic. In January of 2038 (the 17th, I think) they'll be polishing up the HTML-on-a-prim (which ran into a couple of delays) but they'll have to stop work on everything else because the Posix/unix timestamp values overflow. So it'll be at least an eternity after the heatdeath of the universe.

I don't think Mono has been promised untill early 2006: it's supposed to come out at around the same time as the 2.0 renderer. Those looking for MONO information should locate Babbage Linden's blog, he's in charge of that project.

I'd change that list to Havok 2, HTML and improved land permission tools.

Hi Torley, the Clear Cache button was added to the network tab under preferences in 1.7 I believe.

God yes! Lindens, hire this person!
In my freshman year, many moons ago, I vaguely recall having learned that one can prove that "Shortest Job First" would be the optimal scheduling criterion for an operating system, but sadly, calculating how long a job would take could also be proven to be equivalent to the halting problem.
I know that massive revamps are what makes the front page, but please, guys, there's a thousand feature suggestions up on the voting thingy... could we be less strict about what comes first, so as not to cause starvation?

So very voted for.



I rather have to, I said it here.