Gor in Second Life - live on a blog

I suppose then, anyone who has read me by now here has formulated the opinion I am obviously brain dead and have nothing of worth to contribute to society in any capacity- sad really- oh well... back to my brain numbing esoteric pursuits.

My ancestors were slaves.
Gor is about slavery.
Enough said.

Jig- slave is merely a term in this context- they could have used anything but slave held the erotic concept of the seragglio and harim - it is not slavery as witnessed in this country- it is the romanticized idealiezed version that graced Victorian drawing rooms in Oriental and Neo-Classical and Pre-Raphalite art. You love art, I point you at The Odalisque - does she look sad at her lot in life? While Normans kajrae sometimes found themselves head first in borsk droppings, others were glorified courtesans of a sort. Norman obviously has problems dealing with women's sexuality and sees one is either a whore or a cold fish- he gave the kajirae the freedom of their chains to enjoy their sexuality free of guilt. This being one of the points I am upset with Gor at the moment, btw- no cold fish here but not licking chains.

There is no "term in a concept"; my ancestor was fortunate . As a 16 year old coloured woman she met a white man who dearly loved her and took her to England. They married on board the vessel crossing the Atlantic - she created a dynasty of strong women (and men). As a family we abhorred slavery or any concept of such. I do not discount the sexuality of ownership and submission - I understand that submission factor and domination desire-factor; I have a family heirloom; a bracelet that is a silver manacle given to a concubine by her "master" in the 17th century in Somalia; making love with that on my wrist is intensiy taken to the nth degree. But Gor is simply sexual play-at-slavery and lacks the nuance and subtlety of real world relationships. I get tired of the concept of "whatever rocks your boat" around here. Gor means chains and loss of freedom. Let any woman with a career or university degree stand here and defend Gorean principles - or man - yeah, let's hear a man defend their need for a slave. I challenge them.

Ya know this is exactly why i usually skim over the forum discussions about Gor...

You've all heard of Eddie Cochrans "3 Steps To Heaven"? Big hit in the 50's. Here's my "3 Steps To Gorean Posts"

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Step 1: A person makes a polite post about Gorean culture, with no derogatory remarks to other posters in the initial posting.

Step 2: Bra Burning...stuck in the 60's feminine movement type people start shoving femininity down the OP's original throat and down everyone elses throats.

Step 3: Original poster is polite and cheerfull to the insane, brainless idiots who thump gor with abolutely no backing of their claims

It is truly a pleasure to hear from a person with some understanding and insight into the works and thoughts of John Norman. Someone who sounds as if they have read the books and delved a bit under the surface for meaning and understanding.

For the intense women's libbers and bra-burners, and the other critics--attention--here comes a revelation: John Normans works are romantic science fiction. Repeat **romantic** Repeat **science fiction** Ding ding goes the bell. Jon Norman's concepts are not meant to be taken out of context. Especially by those who comment here out of context without having read the books.

And for the other critics of John Norman who have read his books. Not everybody enjoys science fiction. And, omg, not everybody loves Shakespeare.

Gor and Second Life. Both inspired by mediocre works of Science Fiction.
Whatever Rocks Your Boat.

Awwe Brenda- I like Snow Crash too!- Damn - I am brain dead! -

I also like, and actually understand, a lot of Shakespeare - I have read Satre and Ionescu and pure nonsense too- it takes all kinds really.

Norman was probably doing more than just writing for the sake of creativity- this is my opinion and no one else's- I don't know this- I say it because the man is a philosophy professor so he must have meant - in my opinion- to be of some influence- He has also written other books about sexuality- the non-vanilla sort- so this is obviously a topic that has concerned him for a while.


Jig - I truly apologize if my words offended- I realize that someone who has some sort of tie to real slavery cannot just gloss over the term- I am sorry- I did not mean to make light- But it is a different thing here- u yourself acknowledge the power of the eroticism involved in recounting the manacle story. Gor is more than slave play for many- you should talk to some real kajirae if you are curious - not SL games- I mean people that actually live like that. I have talked to them - I am not happy with all responses- but that doesn't matter you know, cause it is not my path but it makes them whole.

As for the men- well- like I said, lately I am rather unhappy with those I perceived as representing what I believed Gorean men should be- of course, my perceptions are discounted- since I am a woman- but I vote with my feet and as such have not been participating of late-

I have not given up on Gor and Gorean thought- I just need to think awhile and take recent developments into myself- when I understand them better I can make better choices of where I stand- in the end- I am still me-

/me puts up deflector shields and goes in with phasers on stun:

i usually shy away from Gor Threads, but i'm going to wade into this one so don't shoot me i come in peace!

as one who has several friends involved in the Gorean & BDSM lifestyles,( not only in SL) i have to point out that both are not the same. in the BDSM community the submissive is free to walk away anytime they choose, there are safe words for when the submissive feels uncomfortable with any situation, while in the Gorean one, the slave is property for their Master/ Mistress to do with as they see fit, and any attempt by the slave to runaway is met with death, if she/he isn't beaten, and/or sold. While i have not read the entire series(i couldn't make it past book 2), it is clear that Mr. Norman has little to no respect for women, especially if you take into account the era those books were written in.

While some may call them romantic science fiction, there are many who won't see it that way. the word "slavery" carries a stigma(is that the right word?) that can never be erased for them, and the mere mention of it, will always garner knee jerk reactions. that is not to say those who participate in the Gorean Lifestyle are insensitive, they just choose a different path to pleasure than you and i do.


/me runz away before the tomatoes are thrown....

awwww

Hmm, kinda resenting the knee-jerk reaction of calling certain folks "women libbers" and "bra burners". Like a certain set of novels, those terms belong in another century.

One doesn't have to be a militant feminist - or female for that matter - to find fault with sexism and misogyny.

I realize that some people seem to crave being "owned" and letting someone else run their life but that doesn't mean that those of us who prefer equality and respect in a relationship have to bend over backwards to understand that notion.

Whether you snicker disparagingly at the puerile fantasies of a wanna-be writer, or celebrate eroticism to be found at the end of a chain, I doubt we'll find common ground here.

Gor is only fiction. People RP Star Trek, too. But it seems that, like religion and politics, this theme invites some pretty sharp debate.

Brann, back in the kitchen and make me a sandwich.

i choose not to respond to that particular post as it would only feed into it more.




Yet many insist that those who do crave being owned bend over backwards and accept THEIR idea of whats acceptable to them. Just because it's not your cup of tea, does not give anyone the right to insult those who find solace and or pleasure in it(and no Brann, i'm not singling you out im just using your post).



It's a forum, since when has common ground been a factor?
Gor is a lifestyle to many who do take it very seriously, just like religion, just like star trek, and any number of things and or cults/ followings/fan based idea thats floating around, but out of all those only gor(followed closely by religion) gets the anti-gors panties in a bunch.


ok, i'm goin' to bed now cause i had to re-type that last sentence several times....

live long and prosper....

Because I love her and it makes her feel good. That's all the justification I need for anything.

As for why it makes us feel good, I'll leave that to the armchair psychologists and just enjoy it.

As for Gor, I found the books entertaining for a while but ultimately juvenile, and I was in my mid-teens when I read them. Much of Gor in SL has a very unpleasant misogynist feel. My own relationship (RL and SL) may have very strong D/s elements, but that is not because I am a man and she is a woman. It's because it's right for the two of us, and I do not consider myself to be superior to her in any way.

Tal Residents

The topic obviously has a lot of room for debatte. I am sure once Sheraka's story develops and we see what is really happening on Second Lifes Gor there will be more food for discussions.

I am looking forward to it

The blog is still quite though.... nobody wants to comment?
http://sherakasirnah.wordpress.com/

Wish you all well

Maggie (alias Sheraka)

As I stated in a lot of other topics: Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and even respected for it. But as soon as your best shot is getting rude, or mocking, you might as well just leave: you lost any form of respect.

Yes I did read Norman. And I disliked the way he writes, so I did not read much of him. But enough to know that it is a fantasy world. Not my piece of cake, and living to some kind of RL Gor rules, to me is weird. But thats just me.

My relation is based on D/s, so you might say my girlfriend is my slave. Well, we call it submissive, but in the end I am in charge and she is following my lead. Nothing to do with Gor, but it is an unequal relationship. As we like to describe it: 2 equal persons in an unequal relationship. So I do know something about the subject I guess.

What you all seem to forget, is that this is all based on free will. Just because the word slavery is used, does not mean there is no choice. The fact that real slavery did exist (and without doubt in certain parts of the world still does), does not mean the word slavery cannot be used anymore in another context does it? Slaves in the BDSM context, as well with people living some form of Gor, can quit at any given moment. They will not be shot.

What I want to say in fact: Try to see things in perspective, and respect each other. No need to agree with everyones viewpoint, but at least try to discuss in a normal way. Calling Gor a pile of vomit, for example, is deliberately trying to hurt the feelings of people believing in Gor rules, and that sucks. Communicating like that deserves less respect then the said pile of vomit.

I have a question, what happened to family life in the Gor books, did any of these people procreate, what are the roles of children, I can imagine boys where taught to be warriors, sword play etc, how are girls brought up in this society, to be 'slaves', housemaids and/or house wives/mothers?

In answer to the last poster, from what I know of children in Gor, they were much loved, treated with kindess, yes, even the children of slaves, who would become slaves at a later date themselves. Both males and females were trained to do the work of the caste they were born into, except in the case of the warriors caste, as only men faught, in this case women of the red would have the expected task to bear the children for the future of the caste.

Children were important to the Goreans as a way to further the caste system, for example, a female physician in most cities would have two bracelets placed on her wrist when she came of age. She was unable to fully practice caste work until she had borne two children, a braclet being removed for each child she produced.

One thing I do want to say about Gor, for those who don't know so much about it is this - On Gor, sadism as we know it on earth simply did not exist. The society that existed had no need to develop in this way. Ok, so it's very idealistic, but at the end of the day, it's a work of fiction, though many people do embrace the philosophies of it, myself included. Taken as a whole, the world of Gor was probably a very civilised place to live, at least in the cities, where it was a very structured lifestyle. What you see in SL is often just a parody of the writings.

If you got this far, thank you for reading, and though I know my post won't change the minds of many, I just wanted to say this stuff. I wish all well, and whatever you do in SL, have fun doing it.

Very True

Actually to born into a specific caste is one of the fundamentals of gorean society. The philosophy is that if you have to stick to your caste, the best breads of that caste can not move to another, maybe more "in" caste. That way gorean society avoids that certain popular professions have all the "good gens" and the less popular ones had the second choice people.

That way all castes and professions had a chance to develope. The ones that were to weak to performe and contribute to the well being of their caste simply got enslaved or killed in raids or wars.

Similar to Darwins Theory, about the best survive within their species and contribute to their well being and development.

Sheraka

Free men do not breed with slaves or if the slave should become pregnant then she would be released as a free woman before the child is born so the child will be free. Free women are the ones bred from though slaves are bred with slaves for future slave stock. Slaves are given slave wine to prevent pregnancy from their owners.

The female children are not bred to be slaves or housemaids, they have slaves for that. Free women do have castes and a position in society, just that those outside of Gor only concentrate on the slaves even though in the books the free women outnumbered the slaves.

In SL Gor you will see a high number of pregnant women who are free companioned, family life is very much there.

RE Caste: (Various quotes from the novels)

Changing Caste

Infrequent
Requires approval of High Council of City and Requires acceptance of members of new caste, qualifications for caste work

I knew that Gorean caste lines, though largely following birth, were not inflexible, and that a man who did not care for his caste might be allowed to change caste, if approved by the High Council of his city, an approval usually contingent on his qualifications for the work of another caste and the willingness of the members of the new caste to accept him as a Caste Brother.
Priest Kings

In rare cases, one might have been permitted by the Council of High Castes to raise caste. None of course would accept a lower caste, and there were lower castes, the Caste of Peasants, for example, the most basic caste of all Gor.
Outlaw

To most Goreans it would be unthinkable to alter caste. He is generally too proud of his caste and it is too much a part of him for him to think in such terms. It is, too, recognized that all, or most, of the sastes perform necessary, commendable or useful functions.
Explorers

I had some additional thoughts here on people's reactions to the works of John Norman and the world of Gor in SL.

First, as stated by someone else here, the "slavery" in SL Gor is consensual. Listen carefully and even read my lips: It is role-play (RP). The participants, slave and Master, are there voluntarily because they receive from that relationship some satisfaction that they individually need. If the relationship is consensual then it is not really slavery. The "slavery" in Gor then cannot in any way be compared to RL forced slavery. Such a comparison has no valid basis except that the term "slave" is used to describe both and the knee jerk reaction that the word itself may invoke in some people.

Then there is the matter of tolerance by elitists. It is my experience that those who most speak of tolerance, such as certain political elitists, are those who are least tolerant. In this case, their conditioning tells them that any slavery is bad (does anyone recall the rhetoric of the wife in the kitchen as a slave to the husband or the "glass ceiling" so beloved by the whiners). In their mind "slavery", even RP slavery, is just not bad for them, its bad for everyone. Therefore, in the same manner that the elitists wage a war of intolerance against those who use tobacco, they wish to also ban Gor because they personally do not approve of it. Elitists are tolerant only to the extent that they approve of something or someone--which is why in RL some express more concern for the criminal than the victim.

The question unanswered and never answered by the critics of SL Gor is why the high proportion of female slaves in SL Gor. In John Norman's books approximately 1 in 50 women are slaves. In SL Gor it appears that 80% of female participants are slaves. Consensual slaves! Why is this? Having a sexually perfect avie body and being able to show it off in skimpy apparel has a certain appeal. John Norman's hypothesis is that deep within the heart of the female of the human species is the genetic desire to submit to her male master. He hypothesizes that it is only modern conditioning that causes the female to resist the idea. Could it be that those who secretly feel the urge to submit most strongly in conflict with their conditioning are those who make the most noise about the issue. Why is woman made physically smaller than her mate? Why is the good old missionary position so popular? What is the thrill in being "taken"?

In then end it come down to if you don't like it don't play it. But, don't harass others that do wish to play it.

/me sees the charging hordes of those who have never read the books of John Norman and lifts his shield to fend off the coming vicious attacks. hahaha