Immense ugly griefing eyesores, a risk land-owning for residents?

" i had to pay..."

No, you did not. You don't have to pay for anything in SL unless you want it. This is what I'm talking about; people take it on themselves that they HAVE to do it, that there is no alternative.

The alternative is to NOT pay it. Doing so only makes this tactic work, making you as much to blame for perpetuating it as the people initiating it. If nobody capitulated these people would get sick of spending the money and who knows, might actually try something productive instead.

Good for you Biff. As soon as I looked it all over I knew the Lindens probably had nothing on you, and as soon as I saw you say you removed it, I knew people would say you were forced to. I've been through this myself and prevailed. Yes, Linden approached me as a mediator. I was not interested in their solutions because they were all essentially capitulation to the people attempting to coerce me. In the end, the Lindens considered the matter resolved insofar as their obligation to attempt compromise, but the TOS is the only law in the matter and I was not violating it in any way. So, the matter was indeed "resolved".

You have been essentially stoned in the streets by some kind of vigilante group, and if I were you I would leave that tower there until I got an apology without any "buts", particularly from Anshe who more or less incited the whole riot and has made a number of unproved statements about your intent and now Linden action in the matter. People seem to think that because they want to build some kind of community, or keep some area uniform in appearance, that they can brand you "landjacker" (which is wrong since that would imply taking your property by direct force) and that you are obligated to participate in their vision, and you are not.

You tried to be a nice guy and people are giggling over some kind of victory. What a shame.

you're right of course, i could've let the sim die, the group flounder, dissapointed many friends, and had SL loose a landmark, ooh well, mabye next time

So there's been a lot of talk about this one particular tower, which I passed nearly daily for a while there on the way to a friends place. I noticed pretty quickly when it was gone as I was using it as an aerial landmark to get around (funnily enough).

Out of genuine curiosity; what's the deal?

ugly freaking builds everywhere, and land for sale for 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 everywhere, Biff gets assualted in the forums for his build.

Any more public executions you want to perform?

Champie

This is why society in RL is so F*ed up. People like yourselves exploiting loopholes in the law system to greif on society and say "I ain't breaking no rules".

Such a loose law system (what we call TOS) is a gift for all of us to use spairingly. But if we start abusing more and more, LIKE YOU 2 (and many more, I can only suppose), the rules will start getting more and more strict and tied down. Soon, it'll be so pickey, the game won't be fun anymore. We see this in the LSL.. where very good tools have handycaps imposed on them just because some people would see it right in exploiting them in order to grief others.

SO.. If you say you're breaking no TOS rules by placing hundred story builds with downright awful flashy texturing designed only to crash and lag (and don't come up with that bullsh*t about "oh, beauty is relative and that's my view of what's beautiful"... well, you're probably right. You aren't. But one day that will backfire on you and all of us here in SL.

Actually, Marker, I happen to think that one of the reasons RL is so messed up are the plethora of zoning ordinances I must deal with in order to have "permission" to do as I wish on my property. Run a business, paint the house watermelon colors (yw Torley), build an extension, etc etc.

Other people have entirely too much say on what I may do on property that I "own" and pay taxes on. Their power over my property is increasing decade by decade, too.

let me paraphrase:
appease the angry mob who wishes to isolate and destroy a member of SL because if we dont the TOS gods, in thier fury over our ungracious attitude and our unwillingness to sacrifice one of our own, will destroy all of us.

LSL is the way it is for many reasons. Real Life is fucked up (as you describe) because we are human. It's part of what it means to be human.

Champie

The flip side is much more dangerous. If you start to allow the community to lay down laws regarding taste and suspected (not proven, as this was not) wrongdoing, such that the community can witch hunt and dictate use of owned/paid for property at will, then we are all at risk of losing our ability to do anything unusual or creative. Your approval is not required, not should it ever be.

You don't buy crack off the street if the dealer tells you he will go away when you do. If you don't think he'll be back, well, you're wrong, and in fact are guilty of helping him towards his ends; getting your money. You either make sure nobody buys the crack, or that, since he is clearly breaking laws, you get the authorities to handle it. But if you get the community to beat him within an inch of his life, you are guilty of assault and will pay the price.

Zoning and control exist. Get people, buy the sim. Anything else is coercion.

Those zoning ordinances surely weren't there since the begginning of all times.

Zoning ordinances appear for the same reasons. Regulate common-sense griefing.

What you pointed out is exactly the result which we are walking towards.

I used to think the same way, until I bought a house.

Zoning restrictions are in place to ensure that my house is safe, retains it's value, and does not depreciate my neighbor's value. I am in the process of trying to get a zoning ordinance passed in my city, so this is a sore spot for me atm. The reason we are trying to pass this ordinance is because of one jackass totally abusing the current laws. It is unfortunate we must restrict everybody's rights because one person has to be an ass. In my situation IRL social pressure did not work, I can only hope it does in SL.

"Taste"? "proven"? Exploiting the TOS is what is happening here. I saw one of those towers. My computer slowed down horribly. The intentions are clear. You can argue anyone wrong.. and you'll probably win. But in the end, the intention is what counts. They're clear as water. It's in your right? Sure it is. Is it right? now.. that's the real question.

And I certainly do hope these laws *DON'T* come up.

But they'll always have a better and better excuse for appearing if this kind of behaviour continues to show up.

Marker, your computer slowed down horribly??? I don't think a few texture animation scripts qualify as griefing sim performance. If you had an issue with a tower in the past then that's a different issue.

In this particular case the only problem is someone who wants to publicly castigate a member of SL because they dont like that persons build near their business.

Champie

Is it really that hard to be a good neighbor?

no actually the problem is the person trying to sell the plot for a rather increased price, and throwing some eyesores on it to help move the land. If the plot hadn't been for sale, or had been put for sale for roughly the going rate, you would have yer argument, but given light of the actual circumstances, no what the person did *is* reprehensable and is something that is going to continue to cause problems in SL until something systemic by LL (such as having plots set for sale providing their owners 0 prims, or auto-returning everything so long as they remain within the land sale pool, or even *gasp* weekly sales fees dependant on the price per sqm of the land) is done to prevent it.

it *IS* going to need to happen eventually, we have just barely seen the tip of the ice-berg of this kind of behavior and it will continue to escalate until it is basically out right killed, via the system itself.

elte...what about the dozens of plots with ugly builds and set to sell for 99999999999999???

Come on dude!

Now you're talking out your ass trying to counter what I've said.

What about when the plot was NOT for sale?? When this thread started I went to the plot and it was not for sale. I was going to buy it and leave it there, but it was not for sale. Did the problem stop then? No. Why? because there is a self-serving motive to this thread that I called at the beginning.

I once asked a person to remove the For Sale tag from their plot because they wanted 9999999999999 and that made no sense. He told me to fuck off. You know what? He was right.


Champie

In fact I love this build..I think I'm beginning to worship it. It stands stoicly against the arbitrary attacks of some in this thread. It has meaning beyond your small, selfish minds.

Please don't take my God away.

Champie

Marker, you're completely right about this; unfortunately, movement in this direction is also away from any type of a metaverse.

Try to imagine the current WWW coming into being if everyone's creation ability were limited by the bounds of good taste.

The metaverse, if/when it happens, will not be all nice. It will be a 3-d extension of the internet/www, and its appearance and interactions will be outside the control of any one group.

The best answer is either to acquire your own hardware/bandwidth resources (buy a sim, or group-buy up public land), or to implement a means to lessen the abillity of people to deliberately bother each other.


Edited to add: another problem when you are in a sim with other builds that you don't like, is that the others don't have to leave. Even if you could pool group resources together in order to group-buy a sim, the owner of that last 512m plot doesn't have to sell, or they can dictate the price. This creates a problem because there are many collections of people in SL who might want to all group-buy a sim together, but either don't trust any one of each other to be a landlord on a private island; or, none of them has enough venture capital to risk on buying and renting an entire sim, then subletting. There's a possible solution to this as well, and mine is just one possible solution.

We should be looking for ways to allow people to do what they wish with the resources they've paid for, and allow us to minimize the undesired effects of other's actions without shoehorning their freedom to create into the box of "what the neighbors find acceptable".

Another griefer joins the crowd. Next please!

Nice Shiryu...

Please tell us again why you were compelled to start this thread.

Champie

Ok, so now I am a griefer..

If I'm a griefer, I can't imagine how you have survived RL or SL.

Champie

It's all in the first post, this can become a safe and common way to blackmail people and acquire their land or sell one's land at a much higher price. It's a simple reaction to a possible threat.

And yes, you appreciate the nature of something just because because "it stands stoicly against..." in other words because it annoys people, this makes a griefer of you.

oh..reaction to possible threat...

maybe you should have a reasonable response to actual things instead of REACTING to POSSIBLE threats.

Champie

Oh sure, thats what i did. Filling an abuse report on a possible abuse and starting a discussion is completely reasonable in my eyes. On the other hand hunting Biff with a seburo in each hand would have been unreasonable, but i dont recall doing it.

hay guys. I know you paid for your land and your account but from now on you're only allowed to build things I say are ok.

Or I'll report abuse you and make a thread about it.