Iraq votes for freedom... congrats President Bush!

Yeah, I have to concur...by comparison, even when he is trying to be snide, I find Lecktor charming, while finding other similar minded, though far more hypocritical bores to be insufferable so I don't even reply to their inaneness anymore.

Oh and Kendra is not simplistic and misguided, she is incredibly complex and like a laser guided missle in her precision.

Awww thanks you guys ! You must know by now that you number in my favorite non-republican people I like list !! Your company is great too and your intellect and discipline in your posts inspire me ! Honestly ! *shout out to Rose Karuna as well*

You've just earned an "ignore".

As Betty Boop used to say ...

likewise I'm sure!

Neehai, I completely agree with you. Moreover, Bush agrees with you. He's stated similar concerns. I think we are all hoping for a secular government. But you have to keep in mind that the outline for Iraq's new government was drafted by the UN, not the White House.

In the end, this election was a very large and very positive step forward for the Iraqis but certainly not the last. There is still a long road ahead and a lot of work to be completed this year. I think it's time to stop arguing over whether the war was just or not and start showing unified support for this feldgeling democracy.

-Kiamat Dusk
Ignored by one Liberal and counting

...but it's ok to demand that Bush be tried for War Crimes stemming from the abuses at Abu Ghraib...

But that's not hypocrisy!

-Kiamat Dusk
Completely biodegradable

You choose to take insult where none was made. I described a reaction of someone who has what is considered to be "expert authority" on what is left, liberal and socialist in the realm of poliical science. You want to repaint your position in llight of his response and my post as that of me insulting you... your choice. Take insult or don't. Wear a clown suit or don't. , Your posts speak for themselves. If you think they are clear, I am merely providing an alternative view from a source I know and respect.

for you to say that a professor can't read simply defies logic, is itself an ad hominem attack and doesn't warrant any other response.

If YOU use a term in a manner that differs from that of a political scholar who knows it has a relatively specific meaning, you cannot expect understanding as you are creating your own language.

You argue you are left of liberal - but those who define "the left" and "the right" as communicative terms for the majority of people are academics, not activists, something you yourself claim to be. Those definitions are then picked up and used by others - including pundits, politicans, theorists, and Joe Average. Consequently, your rhetoric is unfathomable as you dispute the commonly understood meaning of common terms.

As clearly as I can state it... So what that socialism is an old term? Socialism IS ideologically liberal by definition according to all the political theory texts that I know of. Liberal is left. Extreme left is extreme liberal... That is a simple definitional TRUTH. There's no point in arguing in a language only you understand. If you want others to understand you, you need to speak their language; the onus to be clear is on you, not on others.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/brown/cst-nws-brown01.html
What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?
February 1, 2005
BY MARK BROWN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

Maybe you're like me and have opposed the Iraq war since before the shooting started -- not to the point of joining any peace protests, but at least letting people know where you stood.

You didn't change your mind when our troops swept quickly into Baghdad or when you saw the rabble that celebrated the toppling of the Saddam Hussein statue, figuring that little had been accomplished and that the tough job still lay ahead.

Despite your misgivings, you didn't demand the troops be brought home immediately afterward, believing the United States must at least try to finish what it started to avoid even greater bloodshed. And while you cheered Saddam's capture, you couldn't help but thinking I-told-you-so in the months that followed as the violence continued to spread and the death toll mounted.

By now, you might have even voted against George Bush -- a second time -- to register your disapproval.

But after watching Sunday's election in Iraq and seeing the first clear sign that freedom really may mean something to the Iraqi people, you have to be asking yourself: What if it turns out Bush was right, and we were wrong?

It's hard to swallow, isn't it?

Americans cross own barrier
If you fit the previously stated profile, I know you're fighting the idea, because I am, too. And if you were with the president from the start, I've already got your blood boiling.

For those who've been in the same boat with me, we don't need to concede the point just yet. There's a long way to go. But I think we have to face the possibility.

I won't say that it had never occurred to me previously, but it's never gone through my mind as strongly as when I watched the television coverage from Iraq that showed long lines of people risking their lives by turning out to vote, honest looks of joy on so many of their faces.

Some CNN guest expert was opining Monday that the Iraqi people crossed a psychological barrier by voting and getting a taste of free choice (setting aside the argument that they only did so under orders from their religious leaders).

I think it's possible that some of the American people will have crossed a psychological barrier as well.

Deciding democracy's worth
On the other side of that barrier is a concept some of us have had a hard time swallowing:

Maybe the United States really can establish a peaceable democratic government in Iraq, and if so, that would be worth something.

Would it be worth all the money we've spent? Certainly.

Would it be worth all the lives that have been lost? That's the more difficult question, and while I reserve judgment on that score until such a day arrives, it seems probable that history would answer yes to that as well.

I don't want to get carried away in the moment.

Going to war still sent so many terrible messages to the world.

Most of the obstacles to success in Iraq are all still there, the ones that have always led me to believe that we would eventually be forced to leave the country with our tail tucked between our legs. (I've maintained from the start that if you were impressed by the demonstrations in the streets of Baghdad when we arrived, wait until you see how they celebrate our departure, no matter the circumstances.)

In and of itself, the voting did nothing to end the violence. The forces trying to regain the power they have lost -- and the outside elements supporting them -- will be no less determined to disrupt our efforts and to drive us out.

Somebody still has to find a way to bring the Sunnis into the political process before the next round of elections at year's end. The Iraqi government still must develop the capacity to protect its people.

And there seems every possibility that this could yet end in civil war the day we leave or with Iraq becoming an Islamic state every bit as hostile to our national interests as was Saddam.

Penance could be required
But on Sunday, we caught a glimpse of the flip side. We could finally see signs that a majority of the Iraqi people perceive something to be gained from this brave new world we are forcing on them.

Instead of making the elections a further expression of "Yankee Go Home," their participation gave us hope that all those soldiers haven't died in vain.

Obviously, I'm still curious to see if Bush is willing to allow the Iraqis to install a government that is free to kick us out or to oppose our other foreign policy efforts in the region.

So is the rest of the world.

For now, though, I think we have to cut the president some slack about a timetable for his exit strategy.

If it turns out Bush was right all along, this is going to require some serious penance.

Maybe I'd have to vote Republican in 2008.

ROFL... you seem to think I give a flip. You can't ignore the truth "El-Libo"!!!!

Oh, I forgot all about that. Congratulations on earning your ignore, Billy. Remind me to get you your official "I was ignored by a person of tolerance and diversity" shirt.

-Kiamat Dusk
Republicans aren't perfect-we just seem that way in close proximity to Democrats

LOL... yeah... kind of a badge of honor ay? I imagine that this is what it would be like to be inducted into the hall of fame or winning an academy award.

I am so happy, I would like to thank the academy, and all of those that made this honor possible... lol. The list is really too long. You know who you are, TY for your support... hehe

(edited)

Again, I realize this is a very passionate and charged discussion and everyone has their own opinions and beliefs. I would just like to remind you to please be respectful of each other. Please challenge opinions, state your own and enjoy the discussion, but do not cross the line into personal attacks and insults because you will risk having your forum privileges suspended or banned.

Not to completely alienate the newfound Pug friends but I still think this war

a) Cost too much money
b) Cost too many lives
c) Was unnecessary
d) Was entered into hastily
e) Still lacks a comprehensive exit strategy

I'm obviously not "hip" to the new "derogatory labels" thing... but what's a Pug?

And yeah... "e" is still my main worry about this whole thing...

What does that have to do with this thread? Those topics have already been hammered to death in these forums.

So it was a necessary partt of your post that you showed my comments to a professor friend of your's and they laughed so hard that you thought they needed shock therapy?

Okay -- how could I possibly find insult in that.



I said he obviously has no reader comprehension. Big difference. You brought his opinion into this as an attack. I have every right to comment on his reaction to my post.



Is your political scholar better than one of my choosing? Because I can assure that most political scholars I've spoken with maintain socialists and liberalists are not the same thing.



I disagree with your position that right and left is soley defined in terms of liberal and conservative. Let me ask you a uestion then -- do you maintain all conservatives are fascist? I might term the current crop of neo-cons in the Whitehouse fascist --but I certainly don't believe all conservatives are fascist. Your thoughts?



Then I encourage further research.



Liberalism is not Socialism. Find me a pertinent quote that informs you of this. They are two distinct forms of leftist thought. Though some followers of liberalism sympathize with the aims of Social Democracy, Liberalism has always sought to define itself in contrast to both Socialism and Communism.

I thought you were making a pass at me. It was a knee-jerk form of self-defense. A pre-emptive strike of sorts.


Pug is a term used for Republicans. Not sure where it came from. Repub, Pub, Pug.

It's not a "derogatory label" but feel free to toss it out there. Also, don't take this the wrong way but I think I may have to start pre-hating you. I know know you that well but for some reason you get on my nerves. I may have to hate you in the future, so I will get a headstart.

lol... that's cute... fiar enough as long as we don't have to go down that road for the millionth time.


Never heard the term “pug” before but if it works for you it is fine with me… lol.


I am a little unclear. You were answering Lianne, who was that pre-hate thingy aimed at?

Actually, Neehai, the term pug *is* a derogatory term. It's short for Repug, as in repugnant. People on the Left often refer to Republicans as the Repugs. "Pug" is just a shorter version.

-Kiamat Dusk
Not afraid of pugs...

Hey, I got Neehai to hate me! Wowwwww my plot to make everyone discuss things in an open and considerate way has taken a turn for the unexpected!

Tune in next time for more wild and wacky zaniness in the Second Life Off Topic Forum Royal Rumble!!!

In regards to "e".....we'll provide an exit strategy from Iraq as soon as Liberals provide an exit strategy from the "war on poverty".

-Kiamat Dusk
...chooses f) it was the right thing to do and the Iraqi people are better off

Yeah... wars on "things" never go very well do they...

The fact that you equate these two as equal wars speaks for itself.

Billy, I already hate you, there is no need for pre-hate. Don't be silly.


No, I clearly stated that I was pre-hating you. There is something, I can't put my finger on it but I am still pre-hating you.

By the way, I thought it was a plot to toss around baseless personal accusations at people without knowing what you're talking about. Now I remember why I pre-hate you.


What a horrible and shocking thing! I don't think Republicans are repugnant, just their beliefs. I feel so ashamed that I was tricked into using such a term.

How is me vocalizing my distaste for "labelling" people a personal accusation?

Awww Neehai… I don’t hate you at all. There is really no need to hate me, that is unless you believe that you should because it has become the “liberal way”.

I readily admit that spreading hate is something that many liberals have perfected as an art form but you don’t have to go down that path of darkness my friend. You may be unaware of this but there actually are some liberals who don’t “hate” at all. Maybe you should follow their example. Hate accomplishes nothing.

I actually have a great deal of affection for you Neehai… granted, the kind of affection that one has for an entertaining toy… but it is affection just the same.