Iraq votes for freedom... congrats President Bush!

While the elections in Iraq went off much better than could have been hoped for, I am learly of waving a "Mission Accomplished" sign so soon. We've been through that before and it didn't wear well.

That said, the elections are something to be celebrated. I think we should be happy things have gone as well as they did and look forward to the next steps of drafting the constitution.

History will decide how historic it is.

How about if you ask nicely instead of acting like buttwipe.

Well said Neehai and one of the few times I can remember being in complete agreement with you.

heh --ya got me there, Lecktor

You do realize the figures you are quoting from MSNBC are almost identical with the ones I posted right?

It is amazing that you site the Afghan elections as some sort of promise of democracy. Again you quote a middle eastern country has attained a high voter turn out but these numbers are based on those who were given the right to vote. Even then the right to vote does not mean the right to vote freely.
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/asia/afghanistan0904/1.htm#_Toc83879534

During the previous two occasions when people had to choose their representatives, for the Loya Jirgas, they were forced or intimidated, in one way or another, to vote for certain individuals. People had no freedom of expression and we had the worst form of oppression…If this situation continues and if the powers of warlords such as Hazrat Ali here [in Nangahar] are not curtailed, the elections will mean nothing. People will see them as an effort to perpetuate the current power arrangements and not as a golden opportunity to get rid of some of the bad people now in power.

In politics here today whatever the gunmen want ultimately happens. We don’t know what kind of democracy this is.

And what do the warlords control? Can you say Opium...now you would think that since the US "invaded" Afghanistan and set up a mock government the country would no longer rely on an opium sales driven economy ruled by the war lords who support the mujhahadeed and the Taliban..right? Not so says the numbers:

White House's own Office of National Drug Control Policy report, which painted a grim picture: "Current [Afghan opium] cultivation levels equate to a ... 239% increase in the poppy crop and a 73% increase in potential opium production over 2003 estimates" - a sixfold increase in the three years since the Taliban was driven from Kabul.

Sorry but it ain't working. Setting up some photo ops in Kabul of folks smiling and voting has yet to change a damned thing in Afghanistan. I can only hope that your guy does a better job in Iraq than he claims to have done there.

I admire your willingness to not be bias or partisan and to recognize a wonderful accomplishment. That says allot about you. I know that you and I but heads pretty often but I will say that it is big of you to not do as some un-named people... cough... cough... kendra... cough... cough... and simply put a negative spin on everything.

I agree totally with your post. The "mission" is not nearly complete but this is a very nice start and a great day for Iraq and all of the free countries of the world.

Nice response "El-Libo"... grow up! Feel free to post a linky if you want to be taken seriously or just sit there wallowing in your hate filled lies. I certainly am not going to beg you to legitimize your post, that's up to you.

My bad… I was assuming that you knew how to do some simple arithmetic and was going by your conclusion of 81.1% of the population voted.


Let’s do some simple math shall we?

24 million people in Iraq including woman and children and let’s go with your figure of 41% under 18, not 15 years old… sounds reasonable… with the exception that some would possible be incapable to vote (i.e. insane and institutionalized or loss of capacity due to old age etc…) and some would be in jail (not eligible to vote)… but that is splitting hairs… I will refer to the whole group as “children” in the following equations.

24,000,000 X 0.41 = 9,864,000 CHILDREN… not people “left to vote”.

24,000,000 – 9,864,000 = 14,136,000 eligible voters in Iraq (not including children)

8 million voters out of 14,136,000 eligible voters voted…
8,000,000 / 14,136,000 = 57% of the population voted

How about you walk us through your fuzzy math and show us where you got that 81.1% of the population voted figure? Maybe YOU should check YOUR figures before blasting me for mine.

Agreed, Billy. This is yet another example of Liberal hypocrisy. The same Liberals who want Bush tried for war crimes because of Abu Graib do NOT want to give him credit for the Iraqi elections.

-Kiamat Dusk
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edited for understanding --I just checked my post and the Unicef site where I got my figures --I should have written 41% of the population is OVER 15. My bad on the error --does this help your mathematics, Billy? Check Unicef for the figures.

So... since when is unicef supposed to be a more respected news outlet than CNBC?

Does ANYONE else believe that 59% of the country is under 15 years old as you claim?

Still waiting on a linky.

That wouldn't be an unheard of figure for that area of the world.

Not to damper a nice response, but I don't consider myself bias or partisan. I reflect my interests and what I believe are the best interests of this country.

I still have grave concerns about the situation in Iraq, how we got there, why we are there in the first place and the ability of this administration to finish what it started. However, this was a good day for Iraq and if everything else would go this smoothly, I couldn't be happier. At least this time they have a real accomplishment and they won't have to pay any reporters to spin it in a good light.

Cha-ching another tax dollar saved. Only a few trillion to go.

I think that CNBC and practically every other major news outlet is better at reporting the news than Unicef... I will go with their figure.

I do believe you when you say that. I can say the same thing about myself. For the record, I do not think you or any of the liberals are a bad people or anything even though we disagree on many issues. I can disagree yet respect someone for sharing their honest opinions. After all, it is the American way.


Obviously we disagree on many fronts. Isn't it nice that we finally agree on something? (joke)

Well, Billy --it seems you are correct. I will always admit when I'm in the wrong --the numbers I was using I got from a friend., and for that mea culpa

According to:

http://www.savethechildren.org/emergencies/iraq/index.asp

roughly 44% of the Iraq population is under 15. 12 million of the reported 24 million are under 18. So, indeed I will allow my figures as being off.

I fail, however, to see the need for you to bring the level of discussion into something equivalent of Junior High Cafeteria level. The fact is I don't trust main stream news media as a source of information any longer, they have obfuscated the truth in the past to such a degree that I'm afraid my knee-jerk reaction has become one of feeling anything off the television or newspaper in America is at best an exaggeration and at worst a deliberate manipulation.

Its way too soon to give Bush credit for anything. Remember, the minority Sunnis used to own the place. Now, the majority Shiites have sort of turned the tables. If these elections lead to some stability, and the various factions don't start a civil war, then MAYBE sunday's election can be deemed a success. Give it a decade before you even think of calling it a success.

It takes a big person to admit you were wrong and I applaud your willingness to do so. I will not rub it in and acknowledge that it took courage to admit it.


Maybe you need to go back and re-read what I said. Other than referring to you as “El-Libo”, (since you are unwilling to admit that you are indeed a liberal, no disrespect intended), other than possibly that one reference, I was quite cordial with you. You on the other hand made childish remarks as follows:


Some self examination might do you some good. You did exactly what you claim I did. At a minimum it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.


That is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. I am just curious why you would choose to trust Unicef? Also out of curiosity, what do you consider a reputable news source and why?

First: Unicef isn't a journalistic organization. It provided raw uninterpreted data. To that end I trust it for population breakdowns.

Second: I trust News sources that aren't bought and paid for by either those with agendas (left or right), or those funded by mega - corporations.

Billy, perhaps you don't see that your "jokes' themselves come across as snarky. They aren't necessary to the discussion. I'm no stranger to snarkdom myself and can certainly admit to the occasional barb. What I don't do, that you do quite often is invoke your name in arguments well past their sale date.

I find it insulting and patronizing that you assume I'm not in a constant state of self-examination.

Also --as to liberal? I'm very very far left of "liberal". Why should I "admit" to being something I am not?

All information is bias with the slant depending on the source. That’s my “bias” opinion… hehe


Every news outlet is bought and paid for by someone with an agenda. How can that not be true?


That is an opinion that you are entitled to.


Well… when you ask me to stop doing something that you yourself are doing then I think it is perfectly reasonable to suggest some self-examination.


So… just for clarification… you are a far left extremist liberal? Ya know… there is nothing wrong with admitting that you are a liberal, go ahead… it won’t hurt… much.

Gotta play the devil's advocate now. What if the people voted in were the least favored by the Bush administration? What if they were VERY secular, America hating types? Would Bush still deserve credit for the election?

What if the sky was falling and the moon was made of swiss cheese? What if... what if... everyone knows that the "what if" game is unproductive.

You didn't answer the question.

I think that pretty much sums up how "anyone with a brain" might reasonably interpret your posts.

You admit that you are wrong, admit you have knee-jerk reactions and then still engage in exaggerations and deliberate manipulations to advance your arguments.

Whatever your political views, you seem to have shot your credibility in the foot on this subject all to hell through your own post.

Edited to add: You used the phrase "anyone with a brain" earlier in this thread... I am jsut quoting you again.