Iraq votes for freedom... congrats President Bush!

Excellent post, Hank I agree completely.

We all will one day. Have a little patience.

Good post, Hank. I think the real challenge for those of us in the USA will be to set aside our personal feelings about the war and to shift our focus toward supporting the birth of a new Iraqi nation. What is done is done. Let's get on with the task of helping to rebuild a torn and devastated nation.

Don’t put words in my mouth Teeny. It certainly was not and I actually clarified the way I felt in the post where I agreed with Neehai. Did you just miss that?


How presumptuous of you. I said no such thing.


You assume too much my friend. You assume that you know what I am thinking.


Show me where I said that it was.


That is certainly debatable, now you assume to know what will happen in the future. I didn’t realize that you were a fortune teller.


Maybe so, maybe not. Only time will tell.

One thing is for sure. For freedom to spread over the entire region, it has to start somewhere. What happened in Iraq Sunday certainly was a start. Will they finish the job? Who knows but Sunday sure was a step in the right direction.

Agreed, nice post Pleni

I agree Neehai. Wow! Twice in one thread. This HAS to be a record… hehe

All information is written by SOMEBODY and therefor is bias because of how they chose to present it.

You don’t “really” believe that. Everybody has an agenda.


I never claimed that you were a democrat, republican or conservative.

Let’s put this to another test, shall we? Since you claim to not be a “liberal”, go ahead and point out to us the “liberal” views that you disagree with. After reading a bunch of stuff you produce, I have not seen even one.


Just because you “say” you are does not mean that you are. Explain in detail YOUR views that are not liberal, but socialist.




Hypocrite! You do not play the victim very well. Your true colors shine through at the first opportunity “El-Libo”!

oops

For the reading impaired, this is for you:

Agreed Paolo, nice post.

All information is, Billy --is information --it does not become biased until one interprets the data.

SOME people's agenda is the actual free and flowing report of FACT, without biased interpretation and editorialism.

Again, you insult by implying that I don't know my own mind or politics.
The difference between socialism and liberalism is quite clear, Billy --tho' YOU don't choose to see it. Liberalism is "soft" left wing. It is still beholden to corporate power as it conflates citizen's rights with corporate rights. The liberal is so enamoured of supposedly free-market capitalism that it shys away from the true calling of the left --that is the fair and equal redristibution of wealth among the people. Yes, Billy --I'm talking about each according to his needs and an end to poverty. The problem I find with "liberals" is they are ready to sell the poor into badly managed programs of a government no longer representing the people. In an ideal socialist government the people ARE the government, and the "commons" are equally shared. The fact that as an experiment it has not worked YET --does not dissuade me from the attempt. The United States is well underway towards becoming a failed experiment in corporate fascism masked as a Democratic Republic. Is my opinion a popular one in this country? Of course not, but the thing that I do cherish about this country is it's capacity for free-speech and free belief. The current Government (which you support) is largely about deconstructing those cherished values in favour of a corporate oligarchy.

The problem is you neither read what I write or pay attention to what I do. You listened to my theories of proper government of the people enough during your stay as Neualtenburg's private annoyance to know where I stand --so do not pretend otherwise.

I am no hypocrite, Billy. I do not play the victim well, because I am nobody's victim.

I have now devoted more time to you than I will in the future --frankly because it's a waste of my time.

And to think... (edited)

I'll just let that comment sit for the record.

While there is some productive conversation going on in this thread, I just wanted to remind everyone that the forums are not the proper place to air personal attacks against one another - please refrain from personally attacking someone you don't agree with in the forums.

I happened to show Kendra's definitonal post above to a political science professor friend of mine --- concerning her take on where socialism stands in relation to "liberal" and he had such a gut wrenching laugh that I thought I would have to electroshock him for him to stop.

His take was that Kendra doesn't seem to define things as most political scientists he is aware of do. Socialism is, by definiton he says, left of capitalism. As such, anyone claiming to believe in socialism is a leftist, again by definition. By denying that relationship or label, there seems to be an intellectual disconnect between the ideology of the left and an understanding of what the traditional identity of the left is. To say that she is left of a liberal, which is a leftist position again by definition, is to say that she is an extremist --- her words not mine. Still, the extreme left is liberal in normal political terms; specifically, it is a radical liberal position, but a liberal one nonetheless.

Both he and I grant that her position is arguable, if not actually fathomable to either of us, but it is rhetorically absurd based on the linguistic machinations of redefining terms that are well-established and understood by most people who study political science academically and professionally. To analogize, she is saying the moon IS made of green cheese ( without stating the underlying premise - only if you redefine moonrocks as cheese).

Anyone care for some liberal cheesewhiz?

Only and only if it is served in a RED brick house on a sunny day when the sky is blue! Pass the crackers please.

I didn't deny socialism was left --I denied it was liberalism. I said I was extreme left --and implied that liberalism was not extreme left. Liberalism is by no means in any poltical definition considered "extremist" . Whare's the problem? Socialism is a far older term than liberalism --and liberals from the outset sought to distinguish themselves from socialists. Your implication that your professor friend laughed at my explanation of my beliefs is a thinly veiled atempt at depicting me as a clown figure.

Why would I define things as a political scientist? I have never claimed to be one. I'm just your average everyday worker, not an academcian.

Your analogy is false -- and your professor apparently has poor reading comprehension.

Again I said i was extreme left, I don't apologize for it --but a liberal is not extreme left.
Thanks for the unwarranted insult though.

True enough. But what data one chooses to look at, already contains bias.


They may wish for it, but it is quite impossible, due to the aforementioned interpreting function. Raw data gives no implications.


Yes. Not everyone is either a "liberal" or a "conservative", or in the middle of these.


Capitalism perhaps. But nothing modern day liberals propose is anything like a free-market. Nor do most conservatives for that matter. A free market is something entirely different, and does not enable large corporations to grow and prosper the way our current Keynesian/Fabian economy does.


fair != equal.


I think those are mutually exclusive.


I agree here.


I don't think it is possible for "the people" to be the government. Someone somewhere will get screwed, because "the people" (i.e. all of us) cannot have a perfect collective will, as these forums plainly demonstrate.
As for the commons being shared, that's a bit more feasible, but will require billions of deaths, most likely, as it is a negative-sum game.


Totally agreed here.

Awful lot of work to simply state you don't agree with me.

Lektor, I agree with you on this!

The house might be RED today but the heavens are BLUE forever!

neener

I apologize. In a bad mood at work. Will edit.

Thankyou, I'll edit accordingly

Wow, ya got me there heh. I was citing my previous digs at our adorable Kendra earlier in this thread. I have to admit though, out of left field is a pretty solid hit

As digs go, Lecktor --your's are adorable --I've enjoyed everyone with a smirk if not the occasional belly laugh

I agree with you “El-Libo”, there was no need whatsoever for him to depict you as a (edited)


No matter how far left from the average liberal you go, by your own definition you are still liberal, a radical extremist liberal. To deny your nature is an insult to every liberal out there.