Buildings And Rudeness

Hey, whats this with the rude people in here OMG!! is there a ban on to where people cant build those ugly malls and other high ugly buildings around people who have homes build?? If not there should be! I moved into area that was undeveloped and very beautiful , with hills and the most beautiful sunset and moon rise there is. (well to me it is)
nice nature area, TILL RUDE PEOPLE like uncle bob and his gang came in and built right up on my land line blocking my view with a mall and then robin and his big castle right up on the land line from the otherside also blocking the other half of my view. This isnt a cool way to make friends people! I know people can buy land whereever they want and build whatever too. But, come on people if you see homes around there and they were there FIRST! Don't be rude and build ugly mall or castles around them! Im very mad about this cuz i work hard here in Second Life so that i can try to have a nice place to live and alot of us do this and we cant afford that over priced land in other areas and we dont go around buying our money off the internet so that we can go buy land everywhere so that we can be the top dog of Second Life (not saying all people do this) Anyway, if there isnt a law saying that you cant build highrise buildings in a residential area then there should be! gee move to the outskirts of the area to build your high things and dont be RUDE!

It is a bit rude, Livia, but you have to realize that most of the Grid is kind of like the Wild West at this point: no laws, lots of open spaces for people to just come in and burn down or build up in whatever way they see fit, AND one or two utopian experiments around where there *are* rules against such rude builds, if you can find those, and if you like what's going on there.

Fortunately there are also many places in SL where the sunset is still beautiful and though it's a pain to have to pick up and move, maybe you can sell your land to one of your rude neighbors and hunt around for your next place. You'll make a profit (if it was First Land) and if you get the right price (like L$3,000+ for your 512) you should be able to find another plot in a place that's already developing along the lines you're looking for.

Anyway, my sympathies, and those of a lot of other people, I imagine. Good luck! Don't give up yet.

You may want to consider moving out to Meins. The sim is operated by the Gigas group and is a zoned residential community. Pretty much, there are no commerical buidls allowed and there are some general zoning regulations to prevent a massive tower from being built right next to you. You have a few options as to renting, renting ot own, or buying the land from gigas, but in order to enforce the zoning regulations, the land is held for you.

It's all explained a lot better in the following threads:

Meins Zoned Community

and

Meins - Residential Zoned - few spots left!



I am a resident in teh sim and have found all of the residents to be very concerned with keeping the sim looking great. As of yet, I haven't seen any issues arise. Ther eare some other options out there for zoned communities, such as Boardman. I would suggest looking at Meins though. I know there are still some spots open now.
--BL

I live in a utopian experiment, lol?

Yes, I second Brian's comment. I just moved into Meins. I have a basic membership, where I "bought" the land and pay "tier" to the guys who started it, but there are ways for anybody with any kind of membership to live there.

I don't think this is an experiment as much as it is the beginnings (along with Boardman, and maybe some other places I don't know about) of what is going to become very, very popular. It is going to be the direction in which the entire game develops, with residents taking over the zoning, instead of this mish-mosh that is not only visually unpleasant as one flies around, but also leads to unfortunate situations like your own. Land planning will become the norm, rather than the exception.

Meins is beautiful and peaceful and quiet and pleasant with wonderful nice neighbors, and I'm sure you'd love it there.

coco

Buy the whole sim

DNA

Likeomgrlly!?!?!?

Thanks....cleaning off my screen yet again

Meins is your best bet right now.

Midge is good too, but Meins is well developed and handled.

Boardman is great, but hard to get in

Keep talking, keep recording your experiences, and keep letting everyone know that this is the response from ordinary, everyday, people coming into this game, and there are a lot more of you, than the feted tekkies who have been at its core since its foundation.

1. Meins is good, but it can't fit everybody. It can fit, what, 20 people at most? It's just one sim. You'll have to keep making more. And the idea that Meins has you paying "less than you pay the Lindens" is a bit of a sleight of hand, because when you pay the Lindens $40, you get not just the tier level of 8192, but 8192 plus 512 which comes free with your account. So...this bears investigation.

2. Boardman is great, but only PG. Many people want M so they don't feel inhibited, evn if they don't actually do mature things. They are adults and the label "PG" strikes them as silly. Brown is also getting to be like Boardman, and I have 4 very inexpensive rentals there so go and check them out, a nice, quiet sim.

3. Voluntary zoned communities like mine in Ravenglass, Alston, Furness, Pickerel, Grace, etc. These are places where you can buy your own land or rent-to-buy and you own the land outright, that is, it is all yours, unlike the other zoned communities run by GIGAS or Anshe Chung, which keep title over land and essentially only give you access to it. In a way, they are only doing what the Lindens do to you if you are an owner, and since the provide the "look" of the whole sim and other services, maybe that's OK, but I find most people want to buy their land and feel free on it. So my way of dealing with that is to let them buy it and merely try to have a voluntary conversation with everybody -- let's see how we can be good neighbours and not build viewblockers.

4. You will find that the Lindens and the hard core of players have supreme indifference to zoning, policing bad builds, policing griefing builds, etc. They did not set up this game to protect property rights for you and your friends to do whatever you fancy, with your property right as the center of the whole system, they set it up to be an engine of creation of technological experiments for geeks to go on helping them essentially tweak and rock the game as unpaid loyal beta testers. It's a completely different culture and value system, and it clashes with sentiments like yours. To be sure, the culture of "I can do what I want to on my own land" pervades SL like rivulated fat in a steak, but that is not the same thing as property rights. The idea of property rights says that my enjoyment of my property should not be ruined by someone blocking my access, my view, or the sim fps.

5. Rent. Rent is always cheaper even than zoned communities. And in my communities just donate tier only, and pay no cash rent. Donating tier is never a risk to you (only to me) because you can put it in and take it out any time, and only you pay for it yourself, privately, to the Lindens. When you rent, you can change the house, change the lot, change the size, temp land edit, put a name on the lot, get music URLs, etc. and when you rent the view, if it gets crapped up, we all move to a better location.

6. I've been in situations just like yours, and I've tried to talk to neighbours to get them to adjust their habits -- like building out to the property line, which I always find aggressive and macho and unnecessary. Most of the time, this flops because people are touchy and overprotective of their property rights that are in fact so poorly protected by the company, so they go into overdrive. If you can't talk your neighbours out of their macho fantasies like big castles out to the property line and bouncer scripts, then sell your land to them and move. The idea that you were "first" in the sim and established its "residential character" has no standing in SL. If you are within 500 meters of a telehub, most people will consider you haven't really settled in "residential."

I don't believe in "voluntary" zoned communities. They tend erode over time with nobody able to enforce any rules.

Residents in my sims do own their land. It works inside the subsystem I have created and administer within Linden space. They buy, they build, they sell and according to Linden Lab's promise for SL 1.6 they will also get full control of the land when patch is done

but if you get an unruly resident, is there nething much you can do Anshe? they have bought the land...

with the Meins project they only hold a deed to the land. if the resident gets out of control their rights to that land are revolked and they can b kicked.
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I LOVE Meins. It's so cute, and it kinda reminds me of the suburbia setting of Desperate Housewives... LOL. The planning and architecture of the road/telehub area is second to none and their system is automated and VERY professional. I can't wait for their next sim to open... woohoo!

Ok look, I'm not going to stick up for people building huge malls or whatever. But, they pay REAL money to buy that land, investing cash and hours. If I buy a lot, I think I have every damn right to build whatever I want on it. Myself, I like preserving the natural look and incorperate it into my building. Most don't, but again, it is their right to do so. SL is an ever evolving world. I have the greatest view, with the sun setting... up until yesterday.

What do I do about it? Adapt. Perhaps I'll create my own view using textures of mountains (it won't feel the same, but its the best I can do. Since "they" have every right to build what they want.

If i decide to create a forest on my lots I will, if I get a bug in my ear and want to build a super mega mall, I will. Why? Because I invested the money, I put the time into it, and most importantly it is MY LAND.

Sure in the RW there are zoning laws and perhaps that is something that come into play here. But I'll be damned if I allow my neighbors to tell me what I can and can not have on my property.

i do sympathise, trust me, I hate the crap next to my little homestead (ugly floating forsale cubes) but this isn't an individual game where you can build your little house and live happily ever after. Things change and having money is the way to move up and out of a crappy neighborhood. You do it, design something and sell it, be nice and get friends to buy your stuff and then you can move to a better neighborhood, but the rules say people can build whatever they like on their land. You don't need a big brother to coddle you and use you as a pawn in some kind of vendetta against another group, get yourself out of the jam and you will appreciate it more than by simply accepting charity from rich members of the game.

I have admin powers in each sim on the grid I manage. In worst case situation I could ban people from sim or reclaim land. This situation has not occure yet and I hope it will never happen. But if one resident really get out of control and start terrorize the community I am able to help.

let's hope that you are a nice, decent person then. This could get scarey if non-Lindens decide what the rules are....

Personally, I would never consider a deed from Anshe or Gigas to be actual ownership.

Yeah, yeah there are arguments how it is just like leasing land tier from LL etc. But it isnt. Ultimately you are at the mercy of the actual landowners, and bugger that.

I'm sure they are lovely communities and probably a good alternative from "traditional" land owning but they are at the core a rental agreement. A sugar coated rental agreement, for sure, but a rental agreement nonetheless.

-AP

*Shrugs*. Well, you have your infomercial, I have mine, Anshe.

I DO believe in voluntary zoned communities because they are free and open. People can buy land and know that some oligarch who also runs the malls-clubs-hoochie-hair-Internet sales-etc. megabusiness will not take a dislike to them and boot them. The administrative tools always give that community land group owner that power. I believe it will be used responsibly in your communities, and I don't see you using it yet, but there is the problem of your raging sense of injustice (like the ebay island girl) and that means that one can never be sure, when one lives in the company town of Levittown, when you "owe your soul to the company store," where you will be.

There's another problem which is what happens when you leave. If you want to make a quick sale in world, you can put a price on your land, right click, set it, and go away, even out of the country. It will sell, and put the money in your box. But on a zoned community, to sell out, you need to find a buyer. You can't just use automatic tools. You need to advertise, and flybys can't see the orange colour. You need to get the zoning administor to agree to make the change over. And yes, you can sell out at a fixed price to the zoning administrator, but that's not so advantageous really, and leaving it out in world for whatever price and leaving it for 30 days is always going to be easier, and get a better price.

A busy zoning administrator running huge numbers of projects is not going to be able to provide the level of customer service that customers need, like little things, changes to their lot name, when it says, oh, I dunno, "Brad and Jenna's Luv Shack" but then Brad leaves and Jenna needs to change the name to "Lonely Lair" or something.

This idea of how they 'get full control of the land' when patch is done is a mystery to me. I can't see how that will work. I await it with eagerness. Patches always break as much as they fix. I am sanguine.

The idea that voluntary zoned communities "erode over time" may be true, but I ensure they don't by staying involved, as either an owner of part of the property, as founder of a community association, whatever. I don't just chop and sell and leave.

Zoned communities can erode too, when a brand new continent is opened and everybody gets land fever. So...please be tolerant of a variety of business models and types of arrangements for everyone. My enterprise allows many people to have a good and inexpensive experience in the game. So do others. There is no need to slam one at the expense of the other, it is caveat emptor.

Voluntary zoning is better than no zoning.

It is cheaper, and if you took a few minutes to figure it out, instead of mentioning this in almost every other post you make regarding Meins, you'd come to that realization as well.

Right now in Meins, I am paying tier to Gigas on approximately 1400 sq. meters at just over $500L a week or around $2000L a month, give or take $50L. If I were to pay tier on that as a basic account, I would end up paying $15 US. Even if I dropped my land holdings to 1024m, that's still $8. $2000L is currently going for around $8 US and change. So yea, for the 1400 meters or so, I am getting a break on the tier costs.

Now, you keep mentioning the math when a premium account is involved.

With a premium account, you pay $9.99 a month, get $2000L, and 512 meters of free allocations. For this argument, let's say that I am indeed paying monthly and I hold no other land. We will keep the same land figures used above.

For the 1400 sq meters, you would have to pay the 1024 tier, giving you 1540 meters of available land. That's $8.00 US. Now, you can cash in your $2000L and get your $8 for tier, but in the end, you are still paying for the premium account, which is $9.99.

Even at a full annual membership, the savings are minimal, as you are paying $6.00 US a month, so paying tier to Gigas is a little more expensive.

However, as soon as those figures shift, your effective tier cost changes as well. In short, for the large majority of residents, paying tier through Gigas is less expensive than paying to LL.

--BL

Brian is dead on. Hopefully LL is listening.

I have to agree with Anshe on the fact that vouluntary zoned communities are bound to degrade. Besides trying to talk things out with the landholder, there is nothing that you can do if someone in your sim decides to build a 24 hour 400 meter neon flashing disco. You would have pretty much no recourse. Now, if I were John Q. DiscoOwner, I wouldn't put a club in the middle of an apparently residential sim, but a) not everyone is so scrupulous and b) not everyone knows which sims are zoned and which are not. Example: Boardman and Brown have become much nicer sims from what they used to be. However, even as a Linden Zoned Sim, there wasn't much enforcement of the posted zoning regulations. People don't follow the rules, it happens. However, with the operator of the sim holding control of the land, there are options if an uncooperative neighbor decides to build a commercial build in a residential sim.

Enforced Zoned sims are not for everyone, that much is definitly true. However, given the track record of a) the previous semi-voulentary zoned sims and b) the reputations of the owners of the new sims (I don't expect Anshe or Gigas to go disappearing anytime soon), they aren't the massive gambles that a few motivated people are making them out to be.

--BL

Now, if only LL could provide a way to have the best of both worlds.

Someone acts as an arbiter, but otherwise you own the land.

I'd live in a sim like that. But only if Ingrid or LordFly or someone like that was the zone lord, so to speak.

If you buy land in a standard sim, with the knowledge that anybody can buy land anywhere else in the sim at any time that land becomes available, and I know people don't like hearing it, then you went in with eyes open and should not be surprised. Getting territorial about land you don't own is just bound to cause you grief.

Zoning, imho, would be counter to the vision of SL. The whole damn grid would turn into the suburbs with only little pockets of out-there builds. May as well go play the sims, or take away the ability to freeform create...just give us stock pieces, like in Active Worlds, to define the parameters of architecture.

The solution is to create the best possible build you can, find a group (or start a group) that owns a sim or large area that deems your style a good fit, and take up with them. Otherwise you are in the public domain and simply have to expect anything at all, ugly or not. It would seem you have found a mission to pursue. Nice to have something to do.

Hey, I own a little land in Natoma, in fact I've owned it for over two years. You would not believe what I've seen come and go from within my field of view. It's a public sim though, I know the deal so never complain, and yes, I've seen spinning glowing ugly towers, dungeons, and so on. Right now I see a jet plane parked outside my little browstone build. That's just the neverending change of SL rolling through my area and I know it's all good.

Also consider this...should you be angry with the person that bought the land and is using it as they see fit...or should you be angry with the person that openly sold the land to any and all takers? Being as the former is playing by the rules, and the latter has refused to exercise the also legit option to sell selectively...well, you see my point I think. Essentially that owner has said--intentionally or not, the effect is the same--I don't know, or care, who buys it, or what they do with it. Neighbors be damned I'm moving somewhere else, let them deal with it I'm outta here.

View? of what? pixels?

You are rude for imposing your strict sense of what is a correct build on people. Maybe they find yours unattractive, uninspiring, bland, or just plain ugly.

'
But it doesn't work very well. And it sometimes means people have to come up against powerful people who will put them down in the forum. It all comes down to interpretation and if someone powerful likes something and someone small doesn't like something, the powerful one gets the change and the small person gets abuse.