Since when does the word game notate shooting and vandalism?

Didn't claim it couldn't be done. It would be a pain to.

Said repeatedly that I don't care if I get shot, just do not like being shot repeatedly and constantly to the point where it's simply harassment. That's not 'danger', that's not a 'game' that's stupidity and doing it just to be annoying.

And I will say no more, since it is completely moot since there is currently no damage on my land.

Ok. I have the heart for one more reply. It is a long one and I've had to attach the text file.

It contains a full examination of the Guidelines - IN CONTEXT, searching for any evidence supporting the claims of the Rulers of The Outlands and, instead, finding STRONG evidence that ALL the abusive behavior is, in fact, already forbidden by the Guidelines.

After my analysis. it turns out that the Guidelines are NOT poorly written - as I, and others, have periodically assumed. They are actually very clear on several points that unambiguously require us all to avoid the very activities so prevelant in the Outlands these days.

Read it before you reply to me again. As always, I insist that you follow the Rules that we subscribed to when we came here to play. If you won't, then go home.

I almost felt bad for you people complaining, i thought yeah some of the WWII's might be bad people, but I never had ventured to Jessie so I checked it out.

I must say I fully enjoyed checking out the WWII online building, great work. Yes one person shot at me, but i flew around and hehe he didn't get me... about 5 minutes later i actually tracked him down and said hi and we had a nice chat.

Why is it so hard to be friendly? It is a damaged enabled zone, meaning you can't complain if you get shot, and if you do its just like crying shoot me over and over. It's like when you were a kid, if you showed you didn't like something, the other kids would just do it more to you. IF you had been friendly, maybe bought a gun and shot back once or twice, i'm sure you would have been accepted in the community, instead you demand that you not be shot (or not repeatedly), obviously i sense a hint of thinking you are better than these darn WWII'ers! I bet that came through when you interacted with them too. Its actually pretty easy to sound snotty over computers, you need to be extra friendly.

So in short, Jesse is rough and tough and it should stay the same, SL should have a place for everyone and i mean everyone, the people who want to shoot each other up included, if you don't like it you don't have to stay there, but if you insist on staying there then don't try to change it.

just my thoughts

Ok...
For one Jessie in my eyes is not "the outlands", the outlands where I live (Federal) had the same rules as Jessie but enough people whined and complained that it got changed, now it's not the outlands its a damage optional territory...I chose to live in a damage enabled zone, but if enough kids cry it gets changed.

Rebel flag or whatever flag.....Many of these symbols had prior meanings to whatever is the politcally correct meaning nowadays. But no, instead of looking at some symbols possibly having a positive aspect for a group of people, they only want to focus on the negative, grow a thicker friggin skin folks....is anyone gonna revive slavery cause these people put up a rebel flag??

It's a damn shame that such double standards exist because everyone is worrying about making everyone else all happy and fuzzy inside....do I sit around whining and moaning as a white male that there isn't a white american college fund??

Christs sake...if anyone needs more land to build on it'll be available in Federal very soon...life, whether first or second gets very tiresome when instead of being able to try to make something pleasant for yourself you have to cringe and cower that you might upset the person next door.

The arguement..I shouldn't be shot at there cause I want to shop there is completely lame. There are a ton of other places to buy goods at. Women who want to join a mens club cause they feel they should....a huge issue by parents (I emphasize that) cause they think their daughter should be allowed in boyscouts or something.....it's nothing more than people whining and complaining, bitching and moaning simply for the sake of getting attention

Maybe I should start a new thread for this, but I have read a lot of stuff in this thread and others that complains that real-life debates have no place in a game. Since when are opinions not allowed in SL?

On other subjects, it seems that everybody just needs to relax a bit and try to understand each other. The outlands are for shooting, thats why they're there. If you live there or travel through, you run a risk. This does not justify the kind of griefing that Yuki described. However, I wasn't there and I do not know what happened.

Just try to keep and open mind.

http://www.israelmilitary.com/israel-tshirts/images/tn/bigimg36539.jpg

http://www.israelmilitary.com/israel-tshirts/images/tn/bigimg36539.jpg

http://www.israelmilitary.com/israel-tshirts/images/tn/bigimg36539.jpg

http://www.israelmilitary.com/israel-tshirts/images/tn/bigimg36539.jpg

http://www.israelmilitary.com/israel-tshirts/images/tn/bigimg36539.jpg

http://www.israelmilitary.com/israel-tshirts/images/tn/bigimg36539.jpg

I'm having trouble agreeing with just about anything I read in this thread, although I applaud Charlie's tolerant view on flag use. A bit of tolerance can go a long way.

I am from the South, but it's not something I give a lot of thought to. I have relatives that say they are "Proud to be from the South" and as far as I know this is not some secret code for racism or hatred. For some people the Rebel flag is a symbol of being from the South, nothing more. For others it is a symbol of hatred and or racism. It is unfortunate that we often evaluate what is in someones heart (or head) by only looking at the logo on their t-shirt.

As for the behavior in and out of the Outlands SIM, I've been the victim of "abuse" outside the Outland SIM and I was none to happy about it. I've also travelled through the Outland SIM and not gotten attacked, but that might be because I was moving quickly and at a high altitude . Once I went there and floated in one place until I got shot. I didn't even know what was supposed to happen. I ended up at my doorstep. No big deal I thought.

I would no sooner go into Outlands and demand that they not shoot me than I would allow them to carry Outland rules around to the other SIMs without a protest. I got the impression from one of the VERY long posts that someone thought the Outlanders had to ask your PERMISSION before shooting you even if you were in that SIM. This to me makes no sense at all. If this were indeed the rule there would be absolutely no need for the Outland SIM in fact. As I've said in another thread I can see the possibility of having numerous sets of rules for behavior ad physics in SL. Regardless of what the rules pertain to, it only makes sense to follow the rules for whatever SIM you are in, and if you don't like the rules for a particular SIM, don't go there! It seems too simple for an argument as far as I can see. If you want to go to an Outland store to make a purchase, it might be more difficult, but that would seem to be the problem of the store owner. Maybe you should try mail-order

Finally, as this is still a Beta (and even if it weren't) our first objective whenever there are "issues" such as this should be to look for better ways to have the PROGRAM handle things. In the scenario that was presented at the start of this thread it was mentioned that someone set their home spot to inside the Outland SIM and as a result was "in a loop" materializing there and being instantly killed. This would seem to be an opportunity to improve the program. In this case there should be a way to override where you materialize in some way. Another use for this would be if your normal Home SIM went down and this also happened to be the last place you were. The program usually detects this and places you in a nearby SIM, but I'm not sure that is always the case. Maybe a dropdown option should allow you to select an alternate SIM to materialize into. Just a thought. But I offer it as an example, that our first priority should be to improve the program in ways that allow us to resolved problems on our own. AFTER we have come up with every conceivable technical solution then is maybe the time to have an argument about "politics".

No, I wasn't there. I am glad. I am posting solely based on your posts. I still believe that you are bossy. In a later post you basically told us to behave or go home.

Well, you can't make anyone behave and I can't make you stop being so bossy. You know what I do when I encounter people in SL that I don't like? I stay the hell away from them. I don't come to the message board and cry that I am surrounded by thugs and brigands. I haven't had to do that (avoiding people) yet, so maybe I have a little more of this "tolerance" that you are demanding.

I did ass-u-me that you do roam around bossing people around, since SL is much faster than a message board, it seems like it would be easier for you. I could be wrong and that would be good, but if you really are this bad, when I see you acting like this in SL, I am going to run the hell away.

Nicole, we may be mis-understanding each other. First, what you see here is the tail end (and note I'm responding to your perceptions, NOT to this withered topic) of a private battle between me and about four other players. You'll also note that I never spoke of this until the topic was breached by others - many others. This really is not my default mode, being "bossy." Please try to recall any other occasion where I've been so adamant. My recollection fails to recall any.

Also, this board is meant for discussion. SL is meant for various types of chatting. There is a difference to me. I've spent many years on discussion boards and usenet and gone through many heated discussions. I may have developed a fairly forceful approach to my postings. (Bit of understatement)

I have seen you in-world. I've enjoyed those occasions. I apologize if I seem abrupt here, in a discussion board, speaking with or about people who have attacked me. I know the appropriate place for various types of speech, and I am not likey to move this to SL.

And I am a bit defensive on this particilar topic with these particular people. Whether or NOT it was ok to attack me, I don't think it was ever required of me by ANYONE that I actually enjoy the process. Once again, I hope you notice that I never took my battle outside the walls of the outlands or beyond this section of this board.

So, I hope you'll try not to do that for me. I intend to leave this here. I hope others do as well.

While I do tend to hold my opinions strongly, I make an effort to avoid forcing them on anyone else. If you look back, you may notice that my argument has never been "I don't like what you do so change it to please me" - though many HEAR it that way because because some folks shout such mis-understandings as fact and others hear them loudest. My argument has always been "Just stop and think about that agreement we've both agreed to. Let's look at how we're both meeting our portion of that contract." I've made an effort to discuss, and gottnen pretty aqcerbic and personal attacks in response - all of them implying that I don't have the right to even talk about the problem. When I get energetic attacks in reply, I do sometimes respond with energy. Again, I apologize for that to you.

So, if you see me again in-game, let me know if you see me being bossy or rude in any way. I will do my best to make amends. Though, also try not to judge me too strongly if you catch me under fire, or when folks' are being abused.

Thanks for your tolerance in this.

You really are hilarious, do you know that? This is the best form of comedy. You can't write this stuff. It writes itself.

Rather than expend one joule of energy admitting that you have no business telling people not to shoot at you in a zone which you didn't realize was unsafe (typical OH NO I'M PERFECT AND EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG self-defense mechanism), you are expending the energy of ten thousand suns trying to justify why people shouldn't shoot at you in the Outlands.

Now, I have read your text file, and --

Wait, I am noticing you still haven't answered all the points I took the time to outline with STYLISH BULLETS in my previous post... OK, moving on...

I haven't got any RL responsibilities in SL, other than paying my bill on time and not uploading copyrighted material or pornography involving minors. I'm also pretty sure I can't threaten to do anything to you in real life.

I could just as easily say that you are being intolerant AND stifling freedom of expression IN the local community OF Jesse, and most would seem to agree that I have a very good point indeed. And of course I have discovered the lynchpin that demolishes your entire argument, but I will savor this like a fresh bottle of Wild Vines Raspberry Merlot, and decant its delicious flavor, not immediately, but when the moment is... just... so.

Hang on... I need to get out my bottle opener... OK, let's continue.

Well, it's a well-known fact that in war, you have to ask the person your'e shooting at for permission to shoot them... LOL!

*grunt* OK, got the bottle open, now I will set it aside to "breathe" for a couple minutes...

I could say that Linden Lab wishes to support our ability to shape our own experiences and make our own choices.

Now, I will remove the wineglass I put in the freezer to chill this morning, and set it down on the table with a flourish...

Ah, choices. Such a sticky topic. For with choice comes responsibility. You cannot really expect to have infinite choices and zero responsibility. Or, to be more specific, you cannot expect to choose to go into Jesse without taking responsibility for the fact that you may be sniped, crushed, jailed, pelted with a plethora of huge wooden balls fired from all sides of a giant building, used for target practice, ambushed, gored, or launched into the stratosphere.

Now I decant the delicious burgundy liquid into the glass... blub blub blub... and, done with this, I tilt the bottle up, rotating it on its long axis so as to prevent dribble... I raise the glass to my nose and savor the flavor of the delicious product within...

In order to drive home what I have just said, I will refer to Page 70 of the Beta Reference Guide, Paragraph II:

Then I drink down the entire glass with one swallow before tossing back the rest of the bottle! WOOHOO!!! *BUUUURP*



OOOOOOOH!!! WHAT'S THIS NOW!!! *BEEEELCH*

Too bad you are contradicting the documentation. It says, SPECIFICALLY, that you cannot impede other users IN SAFE ZONES. After it says that you can be KILLED in the outlands, and to EXPECT it. Do they qualify this by saying, "Killed by an avatar and not by an avatar's weapon or standalone script?" Nah, they don't. 'Cause that isn't what they meant.

Toooo-ga! Toooo-ga! Toooo-ga!

Now here are paragraphs III and IV on page 70:
So basically they just told you that you can EXPECT to be hunted in danger zones, and if you don't like it, GET THE F OUT.

Dat da dat da dah... *HICCUP*

Who really cares about that anyway? You're just trying to detract from the main item of discussion, which is whether or not it is okay for people to kill you 50 times in Jesse. And, if you will read page 70 of the Beta Reference Guide, which I have quoted here, and which can be downloaded from the website, you will see that the answer to this is an unequivocal YES. You cannot really compare annoying behavior in Tehama to lethal behavior in Jesse. No one says you must expect to be chased around by a 40-foot dong in Tehama, but the MANUAL ITSELF says you should expect to be attacked when you are in the Outlands.

How the hell did this lampshade get on my head?

Except for page 70 in the Beta Guide.

No one says you HAVE to go to Jesse, but - god, I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but the one phrase that keeps playing over and over is just SOOOOOO GOOD! Do you ever pop in a CD and set that one track to repeat and listen to it for four hours straight? I love that.

IN JESSE. YOU CAN EXPECT. TO BE ATTACKED. IT IS ALLOWED.

Funny how you didn't quote that passage ANYWHERE in your miniature Johnny Cochran-like analysis of the rules.

Except on page 70 where it says that the "other Principles" don't mean I can't kill you in the Outlands, and that applies equally to the rest of the stuff in your paragraph.

The Outlands are chartered specifically to allow ME to kill YOU and VICE VERSA. In the US constitution, federal law supersedes state and local law. Assuming that this provision carries over into Second Life (which it doesn't but I enjoy picking apart what passes for logic in your posts), even if you formed a landowner's association in Jesse and got a 10-inch stack of signatures, guess what? It don't matter, the Outlands are chartered - "federally" - to be a danger zone.

It would be nice if SL told you the identity of your attacker when you died, perhaps you can post something in the Feature Requests forum. However, I don't think you have a right to demand people identify themselves, effectively saying, "Hello, I'm a sniper, I am going to shoot you now." You know the risks inherent with venturing into Jesse and if someone caps you from behind, guess what? Too bad. You shouldn't have gone to a region that was chartered by Linden Lab to be overtly dangerous if you don't want to die. And personally I think you are just aggrivated that you can't "settle a score" with someone for doing something that they had every right to do.

Perhaps you can take a hint and stop being so rude and arrogant to the FINE, LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS of the Outlands. You don't just move into a new neighborhood, ignore the laws, and demand that the entire way of life be changed to suit you.

Real men drink beer, I can't believe you people have this much free time.

Sorry, bucko. I've finished my discussion on that topic. If you failed to get the overall point of my article, then I guess "that's ok too." Anyone can find my arguments against your witty reparte by simply re-reading what I wrote - and trying a bit harder to think about why I would waste so much time at it. I'm not a loon with nothing better to do. And I really can take care of myself in the Outlands just fine. However, the points we've failed so clearly to resolve here will certainly be back to plague us again. Next time there will be hundreds of people shouting. Not just this cozy collection. But, I can at least say I tried. Right?

So, go on about your business. I can't afford to work so hard just to get you to admit there may be a problem worth thinking about. My battle to avoid being assaulted will now go back to those rare occasions in the Outlands where such things occasionally take place. I would, however, appreciate that you restrict your rudeness (I can use that word, right? I assume it's not a bad word in your play style?) .. anyway, I hope you can restrict your "attacks" to the Outlands. There is no need for you or your kin to continue this battle here.

Just to clear up a few misaprehensions others may receive from your clever first paragraph - it is wrong in every part. My goal was not to get people to stop shooting me. It was to get people to reach some sort of understanding about how to get such divergent styles of game play to co-exist beyond creating our OWN versions of the shards that Linden Labs has decided not to create. They've decided we need to work it out. I was just trying to do that. If Linden Labs WANTS us to simply stay away from each other, then why do they insist on allowing continual border conflicts (like those in Hawthorbne, praised by Linden for it's inventive defenses one day, and asked to nudge them a bit the next)? Why tell us to stay out and then refuse to separate us?

And I did realize I was Unsafe. My argument had to do with what I was unsafe FROM. And no, I never even implied I was perfect. Or that everyone else was wrong. Once I determine that some one is hopeless, I generally stop dealing with them and wish them good luck. I really was hoping for someone to think about the problem - not even solve it - just talk about it. And finally (that's some first paragraph you have there) I never insisted that I not be shot in the Outlands. It was the assailants' complete and arrogant disregard for anyone else's circumstances that got my dander up. If they can't be bothered to listen when someone speaks clearly to them, and they leap to thier own interpretations, then there isn't much I can do about it except shout louder. And that clearly doesn't help either.

So, forget it. Y'all win. This whole thing will be back again. We'll pay in spades for the fact we couldn't get our heads out of our backsides long enough to lay some groundwork. I'm sure that doesn't bother you or yours, but it should bother those who actually have a long-term interest in the future of this game.

I sincerely wish you good luck.

How about this: you're both kinda right?

The four guys in Jesse should've had the tact to quit shooting at Kathy -- not because there are/aren't any rules about it, but out of common courtesy.

And, Kathy should've had the common sense to protect herself instead of throwing herself at her attackers and being dramatic about it, which is what provoked this mega-discussion.

Look, let's drop it, eh? Just because the "shooting" seems to have died down in here, I don't think it's any safer to characterize folks than it was when the war was raging.

If you have facts that back up your statements that I didn't have "common sense" (defined by you?), or that I "threw myself" at anyone (pretty sure I didn't even see anyone until I died several times), or that I was "dramatic", or that any of that had ANYTHING to do with the start of this thread (my first post was #25), then bring 'em on. Pretty hard to believe such a completely inaccurate paragraph could be accidental, but we can always pretend.

Until you have a bit more than an attitude, don't engage in chauvanistic condescension.

Thanks

-------
On Edit:

I'm sorry for my own tone there. It's very likely that you meant well, and only said what you said becasue these are the facts as you've heard them form many people who weren't there, or who make a lifestyle out of chauvanistic condescension. Sorry to single you out. Thanks for your (tad bit tardy) attempts to be peace maker.

Mea culpa.

I like Ponies!

So do I

Lol.
OK, Kathy, we're cool. I better make nice before #! puts her mommy hat on. (That and I really hate seeing everyone so flamey about stuff we don't have a lot of control over.)

Why do hot dogs come in packages of 10 and hot dog buns come in packages of 8?

If you'd ever seen me cook hot dogs over a campfire, you'd know.

There's the finished eight hot dogs in buns with condiments and a crunchy charcol crust, and then there's the two I dropped in the fire and burned my finger trying to retrieve until I gave up

Ta Da. everything even!

LOL, word Kathy... one year we tried roasting hamburgers instead of hotdogs. (we were trapped on catalina island with nothing to do, alright?) And we ended up with 8 burgers and like 2 buns! Someone should invent a better way of roasting meat over an open fire.