Olde London & Neverland Petition

hmm..I wouldn't mind seeing this place..if I knew where it was.

Let your fingers do the scrolling HA !!!!

Love you sweetie

The "Olde (well, late Victorian) London" and Neverland project demonstrate the great initiative the project creators have shown in creating a "theme park" build. I applaud all efforts to create cohesive large scale builds. Hopefully this will be the first of many LL supported user-collective project builds to follow.

I believe it would be a mistake not to let this project step gracefully aside in its prime, or, perhaps, to change to private funding if that seems viable, and thereby free the resources required for some new and equally-deserving project.

I would not be surprised if the Neverland project (as well as others in the past), and the hard work by Baccara, Fey and the spellbound team, as well as contributors to the Burning Life project, and even Lynn Lippman's flea market festivals... all led the Lindens to a point where finally they are presenting for discussion the Incubator Program:
/20/b2/27145/1.html

I personally want to thank all of these creators who have worked so hard to help bring more recognition to short term wonderful projects that could live, die, and be recreated in new forms, and for playing a part in helping LL realize how much this can benefit the world of SL and through their (LL's) help see things like this happen more often. *cheers and hugs to you*!!

*signs the petition*

Amen to that !

Neverland is the most brilliant thing in SL and it should defenatly stay permanent in SL.

Yep, keep it for as long at it is still fun.

*but*
The resistance is fueled by fear and a belief among some that Linden favors a select "upper crust" in the Second Life community.

This is the first of the incubator projects and there will be more I hope. Setting president by implementing a public and unbiased way which allows project groups keep projects up and running over the scheduled amount of time -reimburse Linden to pay for the resources involved in the project creation. Hourly bill rate for scripting and support, simulator purchase and monthly lease. Pay for the resources involved in keeping the simulators and bandwidth generated online and available.

Those of us who create in Second life do it for creative expression and community experience. Most all of the things in world are created so that some other person will wander their avatar over and look at it, wear it and perhaps play with or inside it. The rest are things that people create for their own personal use which will make their interactions in-world more convenient, fun or pleasant. And some do reap the monetary rewards of their hard work which is in itself a form of expression.

The community has a large number of people, myself included, who have purchased leases on simulators at the listed price. Most of these private islands are there simply to create a space for SL residents to interact. And we either struggle to meet the monthly payment with in-world activity or just pay it out of pocket. We do it to facilitate our creative expression and recreation.

I can understand why people would resist if resources were allocated to allow only some individuals to express their creativity in a permanent way - expense free and outside the initial intention of the Incubator program as I understand it - while others are paying full price to achieve the same end. I would probably be in the picket line myself and egging the governors mansion later that night.

It is not how we feel about the amount of work, or how much one person cares about the project over another, or even about personal taste as your project and its worthiness is totally subjective and we care about our projects. It is about equal and proper allocation of resources for all who use Second Life to express their creativity.

If you want to keep your creations around then pay for what it takes to keep it up or follow the program and get to work on your next and greatest production.

Thats my $1.50.

Minor hijack here, preceded by major kudos to the Spellbound/Neverland creators.

I don't know if the Governor's mansion is still decaying into oblivion but that it was even allowed to is a shame. If I understand correctly, the mansion was built by a group of Beta members in thanks for the SL experience. That Linden Lab could allow such thanks to decay through apathy seems a slap in the face to those who made the gift.

Similarly, Oz and Neverland (and maybe Americana - never saw it) ought to at least be preserved on a backup somewhere to possibly be reincarnated at some future date. That I never had an opportunity to see Americana, nor will I, is a damned shame.

That LL is so cavalier toward the preservation - even in off-line storage - of copious content seems to me unbelivably perverse. Storage is just too cheap. Throwing away mammoth effort seems indicative of a corporation that places no value on customer created content.

Oh well.

I appreciate the discussion here and we will refer to it as we plan future ways to encourage great content. We do plan to keep a copy of Neverland in case it makes sense to bring it back at a later time.

I'm signing the petition for sure. Neverland and OZ were wonderful! I think a similar discussion exists vis a vis preservation of historical/community sites and their competition for space with commericial development in RL. I'm glad to hear that LL is keeping the setup in storage. To address financial upkeep concerns, I'd like to mention to LL that although there may be certain costs associated with maintaining these sims, the potential value of them as marketing tools and "visitor" attractions in the near future may outweigh costs. I don't know what those are so of course it's their call. I just think that having places like Neverland might help to convert "fence sitter" potential members. I like Hank Ramos's idea to open up London to live development.

See this thread Olde London

Haney Linden said

the problem is that saving does not equal accessible.

Unfortunatly, thats all LL will do...

I want to thank everyone who joined the petition (there were a Ton of you) and all your pasionate pleas to keep (at least) Olde London active. This has been a great experiance for all and certinly a learning one too. Perhaps the next project can figure in the possability of making it a viable keepable sim by planning ahead next time in the eventuality of it being popular enough to stick around......

This is what I would have done. Close the sims as planed (saving them of course) then secretly modify Olde London a bit so as to cut down on the prims (if possable), and put shops and housing which we as players can rent as desired. A LOT of London was just for looks, and the majority of it is activly unusable. I would change that and make is a viable city. People would rent the shops out and be happy to live there I am absolutly possitive of it!!! If this was done, London would pay for its own existance before too long thats for sure.

In either case, thank you very much for building such a wonderful place to see and experiance. I just wish London could stick around period! If all LL can do is "save" it then while that is AWSOME (and thank you for it) for me and many others, it's just is not good enough. SL has the potential to be truely even more of a wonderous place to part of if such "cities" as London existed. I say let London live!!! It would be the start of something very special indeed..................

"Long live the Queen"


"Britian withdrew the farthing from circulation as a coin of the realm because after 800 years it isn't worth a farthing any more." - Chicago Sun-Times, 30th July 1960

The initial poster was correct -- Peter Pan and Captain Hook are...there. London pubs are...there. The street car is...there. But this is Second Life, not There. There has to be more dynamism.

LL got its worth out of Neverland, despite its costs, as a promotional, advertising campaign. They featured it on their website, they used it to promote the game to the media. Surely quite a few people googling "Peter Pan" or "Neverland" found themselves on this site and got at least a trial. The promotion of Neverland comes at the same time as J.M. Barrie's book's 50th anniversary, and at the same time as a movie is out in video based on this story. It's tie-in heaven!

It's funny how this whole campaign developed -- the issue was never that Neverland *had* to be taken away, the issue was always -- could it continue for free, or would its creators have to be willing to pay for it to keep it going? And as they have indicated, they think it might stagnate over time, and they also can't pay for it.

I'm all for state subsidy of the arts. Look at what's happened to the Bolshoi since the Soviet Union went south, the ballerinas are in tatters and overweight from stress eating. But state subsidies of the arts also lead to horrors, too, like that state poet laureate in New Jersey with his racist conspiracy theories about 9/11.

I feel a little queasy at the thought of the Lindens just pocketing the copy of this, and maybe putting it back when they feel like it. Of course, it was on their dime...but just how does the copyright and creative control work when you get into this kind of incubator relationship? What if a creative group accepted the grant involved in the incubator, but then decided they wanted to take it over and keep it and pay for it? If they did want to sell some of it down the road, would they be barred from access to their own product because it resulted from a grant process? But if that were the case, not a single Russian painter would ever sell a work to survive, and probably Americans, too.

What if Fey or somebody wanted to, say, add the Capt. Hook outfit to their regular rack of formal wear and costumes for sale -- are they barred from using even a single piece of this massive creation commercially? Could they sell a cobblestone texture they might have worked over for many nights? What about that street car and the park rides -- can't be sold or reused?

You have my vote to keep these wonderful sims up and running ^^. Power to the people!

LL got its worth out of Neverland, despite its costs, as a promotional, advertising campaign. They featured it on their website, they used it to promote the game to the media. Surely quite a few people googling "Peter Pan" or "Neverland" found themselves on this site and got at least a trial. The promotion of Neverland comes at the same time as J.M. Barrie's book's 50th anniversary, and at the same time as a movie is out in video based on this story. It's tie-in heaven!

First of all, it was the 100th anniversary of Peter Pan, no the 50th... LL did not decide on this idea, the members of Spellbound did. The Lindens were gracious enough (after a year of prodding) to help us with this project based on our prior work and incessant campaign for event type sims.

It's funny how this whole campaign developed -- the issue was never that Neverland *had* to be taken away, the issue was always -- could it continue for free, or would its creators have to be willing to pay for it to keep it going? And as they have indicated, they think it might stagnate over time, and they also can't pay for it.


We never said that we couldn't pay to keep these sims going. In the spirit of loving Second Life, we offered to do this FOR the community, not for any selfish purpose. And the members of Spellbound (most veteran players) have been around long enough to know that everything has a shelf life; Neverland is certainly not an exclusion to this rule. We will go on to the next project. We hope that others will ultimately be offered the same chance. And our motives have always been crystal clear. We do this because we wish to have others enjoy our creative spirit. THIS is the reason we all coexist here. We at Spellbound believe that we chose a path that sometimes allows us the freedom to do wonderful builds as we see fit. As we look over the roles of the thousands who visited the Neverland sims, it is apparent that others agree with and benefit from our vision.

I'm all for state subsidy of the arts. Look at what's happened to the Bolshoi since the Soviet Union went south, the ballerinas are in tatters and overweight from stress eating. But state subsidies of the arts also lead to horrors, too, like that state poet laureate in New Jersey with his racist conspiracy theories about 9/11.

I feel a little queasy at the thought of the Lindens just pocketing the copy of this, and maybe putting it back when they feel like it. Of course, it was on their dime...but just how does the copyright and creative control work when you get into this kind of incubator relationship? What if a creative group accepted the grant involved in the incubator, but then decided they wanted to take it over and keep it and pay for it? If they did want to sell some of it down the road, would they be barred from access to their own product because it resulted from a grant process? But if that were the case, not a single Russian painter would ever sell a work to survive, and probably Americans, too.

What if Fey or somebody wanted to, say, add the Capt. Hook outfit to their regular rack of formal wear and costumes for sale -- are they barred from using even a single piece of this massive creation commercially? Could they sell a cobblestone texture they might have worked over for many nights? What about that street car and the park rides -- can't be sold or reused?[/QUOTE]

The members of Spellbound PAID for all the texture uploads, and provided all time, labor and creative ability at our own cost. We own the rights to our creations as in any other endeavor. As for putting this build up in the future, that is a matter between Spellbound and the Lindens. They never had any intention of repeating the Neverland experience without our knowledge or our permission. The reason it is being kept is to respond to the request of SL, it is all too much to save in our own inventories the way we did with Oz (our prior large build). We will be free to sell anything we choose at project end.

A project of this type is all about so much more than money (EVER) No one can ever recoup everything this took out of us. The members of Spellbound are kind, generous and caring to a fault . As the founders, Fey and I are deeply priveleged to know and work with each and every one of them. We personally take umbrege with any single person deciding to reduce all of our work to a ridiculous political diatribe. So, we hope you enjoyed our work, if you didn't please feel free not to visit it. It was there for all of SL to enjoy, we asked for nothing in return. Perhaps you might want to comment on that.

Absolutly Baccara!

In my mind and so many others what you, Fey, and all the rest did for SL and the community is an insparation to us all. YOU folks (as well as like minded indeviduals) are the reason why SL is a dream paradice. To be even part of a community which can and does do this is awe inspiring. Many, many times I have just stood and just marveled at your work. The fog. the textures. The clothes. The history even is just fantastic and is something we should all inspire to.

Thank you, thank you again for all your folks hard work, selflessness, and dedication to not only SL but to us the rest of the players as well. I cannot speak enough about how good you people are for doing this. I may be new, and certinly couldnt hold a candle to any of your folks skills, but if you people ever need me......... just IM me and I am there........

And in case all this sounds like a lot of as* kissing here too you all, it is not. It is true admeration insted. Besides, even if it was as* kissing, could ya blame me? Both Bac and Fey have nice ones to kiss after all..........

P.S: It took a YEAR of prodding till LL said yes to this??? For shame LL, for shame!!!


"My niece was in 'The Glass menagerie' at school. They used tupperware." - cathy Ladman

When you answer me, you are reiterating what you just said to other posters, and the points you are making are not just to me, but to any perceived critics out there, I realize.

And I also realize I take my life in my hands when I cast even the faintest critical eye on a project of this magnitude, promoted both by Linden and by the players. You should keep in mind that my post to this original thread was not so much commenting on the project as it was about puncturing the myth that LL is some kind of "meanie" and Spellbound is some kind of "victim" merely because neither LL nor Spellbound wanted to go on doing something for free. People who get $500 LL in their box every week get into "entitlement mode" and they think it's OK to go on constantly expecting both the company and players' groups to provide them free entertainment. They can't. Somebody has to pay. I'm not aware of any projects like this that can charge huge admission or expect dwell to pay their costs.



Very troubling that it takes a year. I suspect it's because the Lindens are torn between Berkeley socialism, where they fantasize about everybody living on a hippie commune and making wikis and tie-dye shirts together vs. Los Angeles capitalism, where everybody makes a killing in real estate but the traffic is in a snarl.

LOL. I didn't say you did. I responded to post after post that seemed to imply the Lindens were meanies and you were victims because you wouldn't pay, as if they should have entitlement.



OK, but it is not just you, or even the Lindens, who gets to decide what is the good of the community. It's not personal. You might do some good. But there has to be built-in corrective mechanisms of criticism and some sobriety about these big projects that extract mountains of free labour from players, unpaid time from the Lindens, and an indirect subsidy from players (merely in the sense that tier is waived and also the Lindens staff time becomes more limited). It's OK in a democratic market society to criticize -- indeed it is the breath of life. I pay my subscription fee and my land tier, so I am not required to "love Second life" like I would "love Big Brother".

Maybe there is only a tiny minority of people who aren't as fascinated as you are by Peter Pan, but people who are knowledgeable scripters or object creators could be asked whether this project advanced the creative frontiers of the game. Many think it did. Many are privately bored but wouldn't dare say so in this climate of promotion.



If posters here criticize the incubator system (you yourself said it took a year!) or are less than thrilled with Neverland it doesn't mean it's a slam against your creativity. As you say, your motives are there for all to see. You like Peter Pan, enjoyed working on it, and felt you provided a great show for your visitors. However *not everybody* feels a) the incubator program is justified and b) the frontiers of creativity or technology are advanced in this way. Unless we can hold projects up to the light of reason and scrutiny in this way, the game will degenerate.

Phil Linden has to look at this in the cold light of reason and the bottom line. Does his incubator program help sell his game subscriptions and get more land tier fees? Does it advance the frontiers of the game's technology itself?



Unless the Lindens admit that they are taking all those texture toll fees and playing GOM with it (players believe they "destroy" this "unwanted cash" LOL), I'm appalled. I never understood why the Lindens charge play money they don't turn into real money for texture uploading that presumably places wear on their servers.

And why extract from you even further? You should present them with a texture upload bill.



I'm glad you can resell the items -- I hope you can make back even 1/100 what you put in. Try to look at this with less indignation and stop seeing this as some kind of slam against you or your project. It's not. I'm raising GENERIC issues here. Through informal dealings with the Lindens, without any kind of SL or RL contract, you came to believe that they wouldn't use your creation without your knowledge. They did, in fact, use your creation to advertise your game, but that brought you more visitors so I assume you're cool with that. But not every project will be so happy. People have to think about the ramifications here, especially when they do such giant projects with such huge amounts of labour. What do players have, other than a virtual handshake, that the terms will be kept? What if a player used the Lindens incubator project to develop a game-within-a-game that they then sold to another game company?



Phil Linden ought to get down on his knees every morning and thank God he has players willing to work this hard for his game.


Huh? No need to take umbrage. If you do a big public project on the government's dime, you will have to be open to public scrutiny. Big projects in what is already a controversial incubator program involving lots of time, labour, and money always involve politics, and that's life. There are politics involved in who gets chosen. There are politics involved in who decides to work under these conditions. I'm not saying this about you -- but sometimes I find players knocking themselves out to do big groups or big builds in Second Life are merely trying to get a portfolio together to get a job at the Lindens.

I believe that having the company pay out subsidies in free land or tier waivers or free staff time, and players submitting to heavy taxation in terms of texture uploads or even exploitation in terms of free labour or insufficient protection of their product copyright are what in the end will make the game deteriorate. You can dress it up and call it a fun wiki or a collaborative experimental programmers' and designers' lab, but it's still unpaid work. These are the conditions that make things in RL like the Soviet Union deteriorate. When you subsidize everybody, it might start out grandly, but then they don't work and expect entitlements. When you work for free, you might start out with enthusiasm, but then you get resentful -- if nothing else, resentful of those who make even the mildest criticism of your job.




Well that's a bit like saying if you don't love America, go back to your own country. I visited your project numerous times and I'll blog about it.



You did ask for recognition. But don't hold over our heads any umbrage you are waiting to experience if we so much as ask some questions about the project that are generic really, and not about you personally and certainly not a slam against your creativity.

I'd love to see it kept around, I had oodles of fun there! :igns::

I agree completely with everything Green Fate said. He said it shorter and more eloquently than I could, and all the generic points he made are completely relevant to my previous post, too.


This is the one statement that deserves clarification. Who decides what is equal and proper? And just what *is* equal and proper?

It would be one thing if you believed that everyone should have equal access, and have an equal start. That is, everyone who comes in the game should pay the same subscription fee schedule, the same land tier schedule. The Lindens should make themselves equally available to them for customer service, etc. Everyone has a chance to use their own resources and their equality before the TOS to make something creativity.

Or are you saying that somehow the Lindens have to scurry around and make sure that everyone's creativity is equally enhanced? That's where the notion gets into trouble, and gets into more headaches and staff time for the Lindens.

This is where complicated formulas start to come in for voting, or for schemes to rotate the top picks, or whatever.

I think what is "proper" is if the Lindens can articulate to us, in a mission-oriented way, what their incubator program is really supposed to do for themselves and the community.

Is their criteria work -- unpaid labour by themselves and players -- that will advance the frontiers of game technology?

Is their criteria more game sales, which enables them to then put back into R&D?

Is their criteria a more intangible "beauty" or "coolness" which is a gut feeling about either game sales or game technology really anyway?

I guess I am wary whenever I hear people talking about "what's good for the community". First, how did they access the community's collective consciousness? And who put them in the role of public arbiters of taste and beauty?

I'll tell you my gut on this. I'll bet that when the Lindens started the incubator program, they were thinking they were going to get more technology-advancing boy toys like vehicles, guns, FPS games-within-games, awesome tower builds and astounding scripting, shiny stuff that would enhance their mainly male notion of games. I'll bet they didn't they were going to get a controversial experiment in social democracy like Neualtenberg, or a well-worked theme like Peter Pan involving mainly girl-type make-believe and dress-up (OK, there were some cannons, but I never got them to shoot, did you?)

I think LL probably has to face the music about what its game demographics either are, or will become if it grows: not teenage boys, but middle-aged women.

I can see both sides of it and they both have valid points. I can see the need to make room for new projects but at the same time it would be nice for Neverland to hang around for a little while longer.

Bless you for such energy to spend on your response...

For me, I think I will spend my time in game or enjoying my holiday

And a happy one to you...

Regards, Baccara

Nice place, great job.

However, just like the World Cup and the Olympic games are awesome spectacles, they only last a month and go away to a different place every four years. The capital and creative resources necessary to create and maintain that level projects, cannot be sustained.

Also, people have short attention spans. Yeah, many people are all enthused about it right now, but once the kudos and back slapping go away in a couple of months, I doubt the folks behind the project would be pouring their energies or capital behind it. That energy and capital would probably be better spent going into the next magnificent project.

The same goes to visitors. How many times a year do you visit the same amusement park or the same museum?

I really think is best having the memory of such a great place we once visited as opposed to watching it decay until it becomes yet another SL ghost town.

- T -