Fellow Countrymen, Lend me your ears...

Despite apparent misinterpretation, this isn't about 'me'. This is about expecting rapid and consistant response. As a paying customer, that is not an unreasonable expectation for anyone here.

If someone here is trying to say Linden Labs hasn't had time to respond to this, I'd say you're making excuses. Lindens have been on this forum on multiple occasions over the last two days and any one of them would have been a stellar opportunity to address the concern.

Expecting response on something like this is no different than expecting response on a technical issue or a game-impacting issue, or a really bad exploit, or pretty much anything else here... and my statement that if something is not done, I'll be leaving is merely a louder statement of something that -- if anyone is actually reading these threads -- has been said in a number of ways by a number of people who are frustrated with the lack of response to the repeated requests for ENFORCEMENT.

Many of you have put up with the frustration longer than I will. Perhaps that is what Linden Labs is relying on, who knows?

You can choose to make it personal, or you can take it at face value. Makes no difference to me. I'd like to think people were a little less prone to prefer the dramatic interpretation to the non-dramatic one, but then I remind myself.... these ARE forums. ~grin~

Anyway -- bump.

no one has said LL hasn't had time we are saying that they have a system and it may take time for them to make a decision....you know get all the facts before they boot ssomeone...which isn't an unreasonable thing.



You don't get a responce...the action if any is between LL and the offender...This takes time sometimes as they have to research the offence ...even though you think they can find things instantly they need time to read the logs.


Yes, these are forums and you are being dramatic...remember thats why you started this thread

Assumptions say much more about the one assuming than the target of the assumption.

Thanks for the bump.

Whenever this sort of thing comes out, people let their emotions take control. SL to RL comparisons come out whether they make sense or not, and everyone calls everyone else a naive moron.

This is an incredibly simple situation. First Offense = 14 day suspension.

Sort of like Assault being a misdemeanor. I'm sure the fellow with the broken nose would prefer that it be a felony, but it's not.

If a 14 day suspension isn't enough for you, then you try to get the rules changed. But that doesn't mean that you can go back and punish everyone for doing things before they was illegal. In legalese, it's called ex post facto.

The solution to all of SL's problems isn't to strut around and try to find out which one of us is the most clever, or to insult everyone in advance just in case they don't agree.

The Linden's are completely aware of how important this issue is, and have posted many times. Lots of people have suggested 30 day bans for a first offense. Maybe that will happen. Or maybe they'll just look for a better way to track people, so that first-time offenders can be separated from pattern offenders. We'll see what turns up.

As for me... I'm done. I don't want to be one of those people who says they won't post again, but comes back a dozen times. Hell, maybe I'll read this thread again, and maybe I'll even post. But the endless politics and emotional thinking in these forums is starting to kill the good time I get from SL. I need to take a little break for a while.

So... I'm going back to checking threads about jetpacks and underwater fortresses. See everyone in-world!

ban ban ban ban punish punish punish... it's all you people ever want.

It's pathetic.

Cienna, I hope this person DOESN'T get permabanned... Why does he not diserve a second chance? EVERYONE diserves a second chance. How are people supposed to ever learn if their first mistake gets them killed from this world.

And besides... You are in an uproar over some pixels that you are free to choose not to look at. Hell, the incident didn't even involve you! You are latching onto this trying to polarize the issue.

If you leave this world... I will be happy... the collective amount of "free" in this place will go up once you are gone.

Uh.. is it just me, or is this an EXACT quote of something you said before?

it's the echo of disbelief that people actually think this way.

What's hard to believe is that you apparently think it's ok for a person to sidestep a 14 day ban by coming back with an alt, repeating the SAME homophobic behavior, and then getting just another 14 day ban.

I think he already got his "chance" when the first 14 day suspension was issued.

What is your suggestion Yashu? What should be done with folks who use an alt account to sidestep discipline?

nolan... you don't get it...

LL could provide the tools to eliminate these problems... to make griefing pointless endeavor.

from allowing phantom mode to protect against weapons, to providing a way to "mute" (remove) an entire avatar and all corrosponding opjects and scripts from view. This place is one big database... I know it can be filtered by the client. providing these tools for players to do their own censoring if they want would mean that LL does not need to have a world of such opression. If you don't like something you can choose not to look at it instead of forcing your morals on everyone else. *some* people aren't offended by every little thing... *some* people are actually tollarant. *some* people understand the concept of the slippery slope. Though threads like this show me that they are few and far between.


But... guess what.. LL will never give you these tools because the current system, including effective griefing, supports their TOS and abuse report system and it keeps the lindens always ahead in the power struggle.

A typical person feels we need such systems like the abuse report system and opressive TOS... because we have griefing. LL allows a fair amount of grief to maintain the public acceptance of the horrible abuse reports system and the draconian TOS.

You're right. I don't get it. Your position that is. How would phantom mode help to stop someone from placing homophobic signage on someone's land?

We already can protect against most weapons by not enabling damage on our property.

Horrible abuse reports sytem? I think you're wrong. When a person gets the same penalty for coming back and doing something they were just suspended for two days prior, I just cannot agree with you. Not to mention if they (LL) wanted to ban the person, they now get another chance, one they didn't get before, a panel of randomly selected SLers to review their record and the situation.

Whether or not you are offended by homophobic signs is not the point. The Lindens decided it was wrong, and suspended him - NOT BANNED. My god you have a flair for the dramatic. Your reaction to this is more dramatic than any reaction by Prokofy or anyone else who thinks the person should be punished.

"Draconian"? 14 days is "draconian"? You seem to think being booted from SL = death, or "being killed from this world". I almost choke when I read those words. I have played many other online games/environments and LL is by far the most tolerant of bad behavior. Again, TWENTY people have ever been permabanned (or "KILLED FORM THIS WORLD". That is .001% of the current population, not even including player's accounts who have quit in the past 2.5 years SL has been around. Hardly "draconian".

"Tolerant"? So I am not tolerant of homophobes. Big deal. Boo Hoo. They gave up their right to be tolerated when they were intolerant of others who did nothing to provoke them.

As far as your assertion that LL needs the abuse system for "power", newsflash, they own the damned game man. What the hell are you talking about "power struggle"? There is no "power struggle", are you delusional? It's this simple, they already have all the power. If you don't like that I think you may need to play an offline game.

I am not going to respond to you any further on this issue. You apparently think that people should have the right to do whatever the hell they want, including repeatedly griefing others, therefore, I have to step away and leave you to your wayward, circular, dramatic logic.

Hi Nolan. If it was possible to 'mute' an avatar and all the objects/scripts they own, ie not display them or their effects, residents could 'mute' a homophobic signs guy and never have to see him or anything he does again (alts aside). I have no idea whether that is technically possible to implement or how feasible it is. I haven't really yet thought a lot about what effect that would have on SL overall but at first glance it seems like it would be a huge improvement and could go a long way to reducing many types of grief. What do you reckon?

-- Neal Stewart

Hi Neal.

While I think it would be great if we had such tools, I don't expect to see them anytime soon. A lot of these things have been suggested before and not come to fruition yet. The abilty to see who in particular is placing items on ones parcel coming with 1.6 is a step in that direction.

The problem I see, especially with cases like the one that touched off this debate, is alt accounts. A system such as you are suggesting does not address this issue, which is why I am glad LL is pondering just how to handle such situations. Personally I think they should extend the suspensions to alternate accounts. If the dummies who pull stunts like this had to face their friend's or loved one's ire because they got their accounts suspended as well, it might very well have a real impact on future behavior and the propensity to hide behind alts.

A couple years back, my room mate's son lived with us. I introduced him to Neverwinter Nights, the online component - and at one point he acted like a jerk and got our IP blocked, hence I was unable to play anymore. I was very unhappy with him, and let him know that i was, in no uncertain terms. When I convinced the person who was running that particular NWN server to unblock us, my roomie's son behaved, most likely because he didn't want me and his dad lecturing him anymore.

"I don't expect to see them anytime soon. A lot of these things have been suggested before and not come to fruition yet."

Why do you think this is...?

Like I explained... Grief is necessary to maintain an "acceptable" level of opression here... in the form of a draconion TOS and the abuse report system...


And why do you mix semantics, nolan... it's silly...

14 days is beeng *banned* for 14 days. It is being killed from this world for 14 days.

Life happens in secondlife... being denied access is congruent to death... regardless of how long before ressurection. (if ever)

As far as the resedent review panel... Who are the resedents on the panel? is it random picks, or the fetid elite. Because I can tell you their history in this world skews their perspective into thinking that the current system is right... and that is bias.

Well what do you know... you support the current system... and oh, look at that... your date is quite fetid... hmmm...

Just because that is the way it has always been does not mean it is the best way.

The review panel is randon whereas even newbies can be picked...as soon as you invoked the word feted you blew your whole arguement...things are always changing in SL ...

Death, power struggles and oppression!? Is this really SL you're talking about or is it more your disillusion with the real world tainting your SL experience?

regardless, Ewan, you can't even post here. This thread was explicitly for his fellow countrymen. SLers of other nationalities were intentionally excluded, and your opinion doesnt count here.

Oh fuck. Now I posted too. Doh!

Having a review panel and having due process are two different things entirely. Without due process, the review panel is nothing more than a kangaroo court. I know that won't sit well with the, "hang everyone who doesn't think like me," politically correct crowd who believe their form of intolerance is OK.

I strongly feel that LL should just toss these people and any alts they can trace back to their account/credit card/address/pets, etc...

But they won't and I have detailed why numerous times; and don't feel like boring anyone again. Point here is that you are correct in your comments Talen, but please don't make the review panel out to be some additional layer of protection of the process.

I didn't make anything out to be anything...I corrected a poster who ASSumed that the review panel was hand picked from special people ( ie Feted Peoples ). Also it isn't a court it is a review panel that LL uses to help make their decision .

This isn't America and there is no constitution that explicitly states you get or deserve due process. You get what you pay for and if you strongly feel they aren't doing their job and it is impacting your SL then you have options.

You're double excluded being a woman.

Talen, with all due respect, you did. You threw in the comment about the review panel to support your arguement about process. You and I seem to disagree on the form process takes.

And yes, it is America (certainly in a legal sense). Some of you are so passionate about these issues that you continue to be blinded into believing that whatever sceanrio you construct is the right one. Linden Labs is in America. Linden Labs is a private entity and as such may set their own rules. HOWEVER -- and this is the point that so many of you passionate types keep missing -- their customers can and should expect an equal application of fairness; particularly when it comes to terminating someone's subscription. And, if it is proven that LL is selectively discriminating, their being a private enterprise doesn't mean squat-ta. This is why they choose to be vague and ambiguous in their dealings with these issues. I don't blame them.

I can understand why so many would be upset by what happened in this case. But what happens when someone erects signs bashing Americans, or Germans, or Nevadans, or Dallas Cowboy fans. If someone burned a replica of Tom Landry's hat would you all rise to support throwing the person out of the game for burning Tom Landry's hat? Probably not. My smartass point aside, you can see where this slippery slope will lead us if the P.C. people have their way.

The point here is that you all can pound your chests all you want but if you have someone tossed for this, expect that LL will have to begin wholesale terminations out of a requirement for equity. They don't want to go there and I for one, would hate to see that happen because the P.C. crowd took it upon themselves to force change.

Directly threaten someone = banishment

Harass someone = warning, suspension and eventually banishment.

Burn a replica of Tom Landry's hat = kill, kill, kill

P.C. Crowd...hmmm isnt that the lot of people that need to wear signs that say "I have no common sense thus I must inflict stupidity on the rest of the world."?

Just a thought now mind you.

Shadow

In all due respect I did not . I threw in this comment:



in regards to this comment":



I didn't support any arguement ... I merely stated fact.




Obviously you have read nothing I have written in numerous threads on this board about this subject. Because I agree that what takes place should be between ll and the offender not the pitchfork and torch crowd.




I agree...someone will always feel that they have been tread upon from " someone built an ugly house destroying my view" to " someone said I was an asshat...ban them"



I don't see pounding chests and while we do agree on some points this isn't one of them. There is no place in SL for bigotry and hatred towards another race, gender, or creed. While I believe this should be left to LL's discretion and the populace should not have a say... the end result should be the same ...permabanned.
Directly threaten someone = banishment



Depends on the situation....if you harrass me in game by continually calling me an asshat yes I agree.....if you threaten my life in a manner that actually makes me believe you would do me harm....then I think that would qualify for permaban.

If I were gay and someone called me a fag then thats harrassment...If I were gay and someone said I hate fags and I would love to kill you and your kind then thats quite a bit more than just harrassment and that kind of person needs to be shown the door immediatley...no questions asked.




This is why LL has to be the decision maker and not the populace...because otherwise there might be difficulty for the populace to to think in a level headed manner needed to gather all the evidence do the due dilligence and proceed with no bias.

Do you understand at all Bruno? It is an additional chance. It is composed of randomly selected residents who have the option of opting out. Prior to the review board, if LL deemed to ban someone, they were banned. Again, 20 people have EVER been permabanned, hardly an epidemic or oppressive. They added another chance with this system. It's also important to note that the panel still does not have the final word. They make a recommendation based upon the incident and the offender's disciplinary record.

Not sure if you're joking here Kris, but the thread starter most likely meant fellow SL countrymen.

Mr. Kettle, meet Mr. Pot.



Hey! Nice way to miss the point completely! Grats to thee!

(And oh yeah... thanks for the bump.)