Lesbians in SL

Interesting topic. And very personal as well.

First off, I'm an alt of an old player, from back in mid 2003, and humility aside, many of you reading this would know my main. I wanted to start again all fresh though, so I came back as Red. Luckily my main's a lifer so I still have 4096 as groupland and a double weekly income.

What the hell does this have to do with anything you say? My main was female and only 3 people knew that, and I told them.

Let's back up a bit ...

When I first started SL, my first AV was male. I knew nothing about SL, had no clue what type of game this was since I had never played There or TSO. I floundered around for about a week or so, bumbling my way through newbie events.

Now at some point I suddenly had a strange thought ... I wonder what it would be like having a female AV?!? Now seriously, who hasn't ever even once wondered what it would be like to be the opposite sex? My thoughts were typical I suppose, I'd lock myself in my room, play with my own tits and masturbate till I passed out. Luckily for me, my main's name was pretty androgynous so I didn't have to create a new one, and since I hadn't met anyone really, no one would have any memory of me as a guy. The change was done!

I spent hours creating a female AV that I found beautiful. One that turned me on. I then went out and spent my money on one crapload of clothes. (As an aside, it's just a lot more fun to shop as a female. There's more stuff)

And you know what? I felt pretty good. Somehow liberated. I felt all pretty. It was even easier to meet people now as I have a serious serious problem meeting people. I'm a real shy type, but as a female it was somehow easier. It was less me so I could just ignore my personal hang-ups with crowds of strangers. And yes, my AV looked damn good. It was fun, exciting and a real turn on to have this pretty little fem av and dress her up and act all flirty and cute.

Sex. It eventually gets down to sex. Sooner or later the hormones kick in. I frankly had NO idea of the deep lesbian waters that swirl about SL until I literraly stumbled into one such encounter.

Here's where things start getting -complicated-.

At the very first, I was just in it for myself. I mean, hey, this was a fly-by-night encounter, and I was getting somethin somethin.

Then, goodammit, the emotions started in. I found myself getting involved with a couple of people. My damn conscience kicked my ass and I told them.

It ruined everything.

We stayed friends, they didn't hate me or anything, but I was excluded from a section of their world and even if they accepted me back into their beds, the closeness wasn't there, and that's what was important to me, not the sex ... though the sex was nice.

I bounced around for awhile after that, even became somewhat finacially succesfull. (not in todays terms, but for 2003, first quarter of 2004 I was doing pretty OK by anyones standards, even getting a monthly developers award once when I had a good month)

I even had another relationship with a female AV who was also a male in RL.

You see, it didn't matter to me that he was a guy in RL, all I saw was a female AV. I guess the idea of a "Second Life" was what drew me to this place, and I got behind that. This was my Second Life, not an extension of my first life. And I see that when I meet others. I for one don't give one thin damn who's at the other end of those pixels, what matters to me is what I see because that's the lfe, the persona you choose.

But I know it's not that way for some.

It got harder and harder for me to socialize. Sure I wanted to party and hopefully hook up with some other girls, but I didn't want anyone to know I was a guy. Why? Some people, a lot of people, even people who would say it doesn't matter .. well, for most people it does. You're never So-and-So, you're 'that female av known as So-and-So but who;s really a guy'.

I was afraid of getting too involved because I knew if I did, and got emotionally involved, I'd have to tell the truth, and then it would be over. And I couldn't make it known I was a guy because I was very afraid of how I'd be treated.

Here's something I believe, if it's known you're a guy playing a female AV, then it's just hard to "be" a girl. You can't be, all you can be is a female AV and there's a big difference.

And I didn't want to put up with any crap.

Well, I missed SL so I decided to come back, but as a guy. Will it work this time on the social front? I got no clue.

My final point I guess is that there are valid, if perhaps stupid, reasons for a guy to play a female and not tell anyone about it. It's not malicious, it's not mean or deliberately deceitful, it's just a way to be something you're not. To experiance something there's absolutely no way in hell of experiancing in RL. No it doesn't have anything to do with being gay in RL either. Being a little bi helps, sure, but it's not about that. It's about experiance, personal expression, personal feelings. Exploring your own head and being able to be something completely different. And if someone knows you're actually a guy in RL, then you can't experiance it the same way, that's just the way it is. It is not about putting one over on the other girl, it's about personal perception. Losing yourself in your own fantasy.


And it is different. To be honest, it's a ton of fun to be a cute pretty girl in SL, I'll miss it, but at least I won't have to worry about accidently destroying something precious, like a perfect moment when everything is wonderful.

I think that test says almost everyone is a slut! Even me and I'm so not it's funny.


Wow Red, gotta give you credit for being honest once RL emotions were involved. I personally could never be male, I'm totally female and wouldn't even know how to act like anything else.

Wonderful post, Red. Thank you.

Really nice post Red, written loud and clear from the heart ... and I think there are many who will read and relate ....

You know, in certain ways I think we explore our emotions even more here than back in 'real' life, partially because we feel safer perhaps, and so less inhibited from opening up, and partially because we find ourselves daily in such a great variety of circumstances with such limitless freedom of expression.

This particular issue of RL vs. SL sex seems to be an ongoing dilemma here, and I think will continue to be so, as long as we each individually struggle with how much of us is defined by our real life physical form, and how much by our inner mind. The differing ways we 'live' our Second Lives I think, places differing priorities on those two factors, and so makes the answer just as individual to the person concerned.

*Smiles*, I see the thread keeps edging away from its original title to the issue of gender, almost predictably (lol), but I don't believe most males-playing-females are doing so principally for the potential of lesbian encounters, though that may be something experienced on the journey, as a result of connecting with someone. Self exploration and fantasy (even roleplay? or simply just fun?) are more common I would think, and where a male really, truly and deeply feels proportionately more biased to their feminine side than their masculine, in their heart and mind, well ... what an extraordinary and liberating experience Second Life then offers up..........

Musing, musing, ever musing...

I've always been female online. I even tried being male once, but after so many years as a girl, it just didn't work. But anyway...

Back in the early days, I didn't tell people at first. I'd wait until it "got serious." As would be expected (looking back now), sometimes it was okay, sometimes it wasn't. I got hurt, a lot of people got hurt.

That was an impressive piece you wrote, Red. Took a lot of guts to expose yourself like that. And it's true... when people know you're not an RL female, there's a difference. I've always said, the one thing I'll never experience is what it's like to be in a group of all women... because by definition, my presence precludes that.

But I'm a lot more comfortable being honest. I finally "came out" fully, years ago, on a MUSH... and since then, everywhere I go, I'm upfront enough to mention it in my profile.

It takes away the pressure. I don't have to worry about telling people. I can just be me.

Those people who are bothered by it? Odds are, I didn't really want to get close to them anyway, whether they knew or not.

And surprisingly, most people don't care. I've had relationships with RL women and RL men playing women, and RL men playing men (not an RL woman playing a man, yet), and they all knew the truth about me. It helps that I'm bi, but I don't think that's all of it. What you see here *is* me, and I like to think that people who are attracted to me are attracted to that.

And for those who are sad because of lesbians that can't or won't be with you when they know you're RL male.... or who are more detached.... guess what? You weren't going to make it any better if you'd lied? It's true, some things we can't experience. That's true for everyone.

(On a side note... if you're an RL male who likes to play lesbian, and are really in it for the sex... find yourself another male playing lesbian. Trust me, that's where you'll have the most fun. Great minds thinking alike and all that)

Anyway... the point I'm barely trying to make here is that I understand the desire to keep quiet... and I've been there myself. And I would never "out" someone. That's their call. But speaking from both sides of it, I can tell you that the peace of mind you gain from being honest is worth so much more than whatever you think you may gain from being quiet.

So come visit me, and we'll have some girl talk.

--Carolyn
(Auntie uncle?)

Well the original posters stated purpose was to discuss how many of the avatar lesbians on second life are actually played by men, and therefore, by definition, not lesbian.

I would probably point out im sure there are men who play as straight women AVs also. And women who play straight men AVs.

The humor brought up asside .. like the test .. there were some things brought up to help people think.

Its true - this thead is mis named , however.

think it should read "Can male players be lesbians in second life?"

I think the concepts of whether someone were emotionally/physically transgendered might be a bit more complex. I have known several men who claimed to be transgendered online .. but I am not sure I believed them.

I knew one female who said she was transgendered and played as a male. Considering how she acted I think she was telling the truth.

When i spoke about how i had been lied to by a female AV in another game who turned out to be a man, I was trying to explain what men who do this could be doing to the woman they propose to care for. I was deeply hurt when he admited to me just some of his lies.

To be honest, after all the lies he told me, it dropped my faith in men, already shaky, down several pegs.

I would suggest that any men who are playing as women consider the things the personal accounts Red, Kathmandu and Carolyn mentioned since thats from people who have experienced it.

And i think there are varying degrees in this .. a one night stand is considerably different then asking a woman for her virtual hand


I would like to point out very clearly .. theres a big difference between lesbians and the porno fantasy of lesbians so commonly expressed in XXX media.

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Anyway as to the subject of ACTUAL lesbians in Second life

The Lesbian Second Life group, my online girlfiend highly recomends. I havent been to any of their functions/mixers yet. But I trust her word on it ^^.

I would recomend the Rainbow Center, run by a very friendly couple.

Also I would also recomend Sappho's Garden as a place to take a look at.

Wow, how did I miss this thread!! lol
Anyway, Hi, real lesbian here
I get asked a lot how I know that members of my Group Lesbian Second Life (SL's very first lesbian specific group, founded in May of last year... woot!) are actually lesbians and my response is typically "what do I care, I aint screwin' em". I have found men posing as women hanging around my community center all the time, hoping to witness or participate in hot lesbian sex, much to thier disappointment.
What it comes down to is taking the time to know the person you are investing in emotionally. If you do that, it wont really matter if the AV you are diggin has the sort of parts you perfer IRL.
What I wish for in each of these sorts of incidents, where straight men find themselve engaged in "hot lesbian sex' with each other, is that they open thier eyes just a tiny little bit to maybe look past the preconcieved notion of what is was they thought they were doing and see that , wow, they met someone who really turned them on, who touched them, who CONNECTED and holy shit it turned out to be a DUDE and so... hmmm, maybe I am not as uptight and heterosexual as I thought and gee, so friggin WHAT.
SL provides such an incredible oppurtunity to explore ones sexuality, with freedoms and licenses RL just wont loosen up on, so I say: No, men arent lesbians just because they put on a woman av and nope, straight women IRL exploring their lesbian fantasies in SL arent lesbians in a technical sense, but really, so what? I think its fabulous that straight men like to put on women's avs so they can dress pretty And every "real lesbian" I know in this world has a detacable male appendage, so fair's fair, right? Explore! You are depriving yourself a great deal if you never walk around SL as the opposite sex, just for the EXPERIENCE of it. BUT... Be honest with the person you are investing in emotionally and get to know the person that controls that hot AV. You're much less likely to get duped by those 'pretending' to be something they are not if you find out who they 'are' first.

Since this thread was active the first time, my SL girlfriend and I have opened up a lesbian bar and coincidently this did become a topic of discussion amoung our patrons and staff.

Two lesbians I know are extremely opposed to men pretending to be women, to the point that they have their own terminolgy for it. "Poser" and "Fauxbian"

One even suggested banning all suspects from the club. Of course this is entirely unenforcable and arbitrary even had we agreed.

I think its clear though , different people place different levels of detachment between their first life and second.

Those who see Second Life more as a 3D chat room want no seperation of SL and reality. To them the idea of concealing Real Life Gender is a very serious problem. These people general freely exchange photographs , etc.

To those that see SL as a more liberating Detached place , who is on the other side of the screen is less imporant .. I think that was the sort of idea that Pie was expressing , and others earlier in the thread. Roleplay , basically.

There will be of course those in the middle of those two stances on how RL is attached to the in world environment.

SO .. would it not be fair to say that a man pretending would be far more damaging to the FIRST group who see second life as a Chat room and tied to their First Life, then he would be to the SECOND group who see this as a role playing game?

I think its not fair for the people who want Real world information to matter to tell the "its role playing" group they are wrong
... BUT ..
Its also unfair for the roleplaying group to tell the Real World information people they are wrong also.

Perhaps an understanding on how a potential lover sees Second Life should proceed any trips to the bedroom. Reguardless of who would be on the other side of the screen.