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Issue Rehash: Second Life MUST be an enjoyable place for the Average Person

Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
04-25-2005 12:25
From: Colette Meiji
I was under the impression these Lindins people bought with US$ were being SOLD by other players, is this correct?


That is correct :)
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
04-25-2005 12:26
From: Uma Bauhaus

Please don't accuse me of being Ulrika. That would be harassment.

~Uma~


You should be so lucky as to be accused of being Ulrika.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

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Uma Bauhaus
Renascene
Join date: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 636
04-25-2005 12:29
From: Cristiano Midnight
You should be so lucky as to be accused of being Ulrika.
He he. You are so nice. :D

Uh. I mean, whatever, she's not that great.

~Ulruma~
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
04-25-2005 12:34
From: Aimee Weber
I guess you're right. I am just so tired of all these alts like Amy Weebler. SHE is obviously someone's alt.


Yes but that Amy Weebler makes those really tasty cookies, which she stole the recipe of from those little elves and took credit for it herself. Plus she needs to shave.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.

Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
04-25-2005 12:37
Amy Weebler is an alt?! :eek:
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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
04-25-2005 12:39
From: Jeffrey Gomez
The level of empowerment we should be shooting for is what the Internet is able to do already, or if you'd like - we want to create a metaverse.


I support this idea/suggestion 100%! :D
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*hugs everyone*
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
04-25-2005 12:40
From: Aimee Weber
I love this picture. :D

~Ulrika~
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Kismet Karuna
Tosser
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 195
04-25-2005 12:41
From: Cristiano Midnight
You should be so lucky as to be accused of being Ulrika.

Bolsheviks!
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
04-25-2005 12:42
From: Kismet Karuna
Bolsheviks!
Gesundheit!

~Ulrika~
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Kismet Karuna
Tosser
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 195
04-25-2005 12:44
From: Aimee Weber


Dear Mr. or Mrs. Aimee,

I have just filed an abuse report against you.

Yours Truly,
Amy Weebler

Inspector Jacques Clouseau: There is something.... personal.... in this?
Commissioner Charles Dreyfus: Yes.... deeply personal.... I hate you.... every little bit of you. Now get out!
Pathfinder Linden
Administrator
Join date: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 507
04-25-2005 12:56
I have deleted the posts in this thread accusing someone of having alt accounts, as well as any other posts related to it.

It's a violation of privacy to accuse people of this, and against the Guidelines. Any further accusations or discussion like this will result in formal warnings.

Thank you for you attention.
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David Valentino
Nicely Wicked
Join date: 1 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,941
04-25-2005 13:00
I want to be someone's alt! :(
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David Lamoreaux

Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery
Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
04-25-2005 13:08
From: David Valentino
I want to be someone's alt! :(


If a conjoined twin had two SL accounts, would they be alts?
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Nala Galatea
Pink Dragon Kung-Fu
Join date: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 335
04-25-2005 13:10
From: Chip Midnight
If you're not willing to do that how can you fault others for not providing it for you?
Probably because in most other online environments, people pay the original company money to create the content and update it and upkeep it.

And that mentality doesn't work for SL because people create content on their own.* There is very little collaborative work done in SL for anything.* This means there is one person responsible for all this particular content, and this is why things don't get updated or improved.* You can't even pay a lot of people to do things for you because a) they are overworked or b) they have other things to do.*

The learning curve for creating content is still a big hurdle for the "average" user. If you are not a visual learner, if you have no scripting/artistic/3d modeling background at all (which is what most people have), then there is a very high and steep curve to battle. Some people would prefer Lego's, since that puts things at a level most can understand.

Until SL gets to the level of that, there will always be a barrier between the people of SL and the broader market of internet users. Until SL evolves to a point where groups of people can actually do content creation on a daily basis, of good enough quality that people would be willing to pay them, not LL, for its upkeep, then other online envirnments will always lure them away to an easier and "happier" place.

*These statements apply to most, but definitely not all. There are always notable exceptions to the rule.

Also, I should point out that by content creation I'm more refering to builds and places, not sellable objects or clothing, as both of those markets are awash with content that people are happy to pay for. I've yet to see any event or any place (other than Tringo and gambling (which to me are rather synonymous)) that people will pay money for the creation and upkeep of.
Kismet Karuna
Tosser
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 195
04-25-2005 13:19
From: Chance Abattoir
If a conjoined twin had two SL accounts, would they be alts?

Depends upon where they are conjoined...

For instance, since the conjoined twins in the picture below do not seem to share the same cranium, I would say no, they are not alts if they both hold an SL account, which I really hope they do...

Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
04-25-2005 13:31
Coco isn't my alt in case anybody is confused again on that point lol.

Coco, you might be happier with a premium account on an annual basis, which is $6 a month then, and then add to that just $5 to have a 1024 level of land, then save a little and buy that land. Sell it, stay on it, but for $11 a month, you could be getting $500 in your stipend box every week instead of $50 and have some land to parley into something. I really don't understand why you have set yourself this concept of the one-time $9.95 basic account fee, when in TSO, you paid $9.95 month after month to do what you do -- and $9.95 month after month here gives you the free 512 and $500 stipend -- and you could be ratcheting that up merely to the annualized version to bring down the cost.

You're asking for an activity to click on mindlessly to make money, while you chat with friends. The only thing remotely like that I've found in SL is clicking on lots to see if they need prims swept off them, or clicking on people who have expired vendors and sending them notices. This kind of activity adds to my business and I can be in other IMs simply chatting, which I usually don't have much time to do, or answer customers' questions and moving them in.

But most of SL is hella hard, requiring hours of picky helacious hard work. Talk about skilling your sim! You can skill your sim in SL, too, but it unfortunately requires skilling your human up too, and most times he just won't skill up as you'd like. And every time you get a little bit ahead, they change the rules on you again.

The Game Show idea could be a kind of Tringo in SL, but I don't know where you'd get the game prizes from. Only through selling land and content on the side, I guess, or getting donations of merchants who want the advertising. Like I said, if you want to come on one of my malls for free and do Game Show on that property to drive in traffic,you can have the use of a property...but then how will we pay the prize money? Maybe I could kick in some, but it's not a solution...unless you can figure a way to make people click on something and pay even $10 to get in the game...

So what happens is before you know it, you need objects and scripting. Then you end up like every other newb, and I've been there, desperately writing some complicated idea then putting up a notice on the forums "I need scripters, animators, artists, and builders to do X"...and they don't come, and often just laugh at you, because they work among their own friends and their own network and haven't really grasped that more kind of impersonal, non-guild economy, where a worker hires themselves out to others for a fixed public fee, without having to be friends and buddies.
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
04-25-2005 13:31
MY ALT ACCOUNT IS A GIANT BUNNY RABBIT NAMED TORLOP.

That being said, on topic, I dunno "average". I really don't. I don't wanna say "mediocre" either if "average = mediocre", because by that math, I'd be dumping on a lot of fellow human beings, and that's something I frown on. Sure, there are peeps I gravitate to more than others by way of shared connections in a certain area (watermelon colors, propensity for rezzing wacky stuff and spinning around on it, Stephen King's Dark Tower, etc.), but I can't level out and generalize on a non-individual level. Perhaps I could throw out a "Most people" and there are sorted demographics, but eh, it's just not something I do. I'll leave it to an EXPERT... w00h00!

But I do know this, speaking strictly about myself: I'm a simple person, very basic-minded. And on a Basic account too. SL has sure confused me at times, and still does, but that's been part of the wonder.You know how when you get your arms all pent up in solving a puzzle, and when it's resolved, you have a feeling of elation and achievement? That's the way I felt getting contents out of a box for the first time... pretty much a universal SL experience, this.

I do hope Residents here come away with more than just amusement, that in addition to the fun which I hold so dearly, that maybe a profound life insight comes to them -- an epiphany -- or maybe they're struck in another direction that's a paradigm shift which makes them relook how they've been living. SL has really, really changed some people's lives for the better, First AND Second, and I hope it continues to do that. Maybe you were repressed as a child and always got the smackdown for imagination by "authority figures", which is very tragic. But maybe you've been rediscovering that joy and bursting out here in the sandboxes, living a SECOND CHILDHOOD. Maybe you are a paraplegic IRL, but in SL, you live vicariously through your avatar and are thankful you are not judged in this way because you can dance so well.

I'm passionate, I'm touched, I'm inspired, all of the positive above, and I'm also a stickler for UI excellence. Like remember just last week when 1.6.2 muted audio on minimize? And a whole bunch of us wanted it back, so we let LL know, and they put it back? And all the communication we've had with them, that sort of rapport, and amongst ourselves on the forums and inworld? Those bonds, connections, links that remind us that despite our differences, we're all in this together? Sure, it's nice to want it easy. I crave efficiency and I don't want to be bogged down by lag or crashes. But even if those were fixed, we'd still have interpersonal conflicts. So --

-- at the same time, we wouldn't be where we are today without challenging ourselves, each other... and growing as people (whether homo sapiens, furry, outbound mechanicalism, etc.).

Progress! :)

*BIGHUG*
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
SL must be for the average person?
04-25-2005 13:32
In recent, related news, all the residents of SL appear to be above average. :p
Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
04-25-2005 13:55
From: Buster Peel
But SL does need to appeal to a braod constituency in order to grow enough to justify its existence. There isn't enough money in it at its current size to run a business like Linden Labs for very long. It must grow in order to survive. In order to grow, it must appeal to a large audience.


This is pure assumption. There is nothing whatsoever to support this assumption. Indeed, the Lindens themselves have only recently stated they do not perceive this 'issue' as one.

Considering they have the financials at hand, I'm inclined to agree with them.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
04-25-2005 14:53
Hmmm, wonder what I missed since I last posted.

Anyway,

1. “Get together a group of people who'd like to do it. Pool your resources. Structure it so that it makes money rather than loses it. Charge admission.”

Now that’s something I hadn’t thought of. (Being a rugged individualist and all, lol.) That is a good idea. One caveat - I don’t think charging admission will ever work, in any game, for much of anything. JMHO and my experience.

2. And now I understand that business about $750 plus $50; I thought that person meant that much every week. But I don’t think it is $750 (or $500 or whatever was said), I am pretty sure I remember $250, plus my friend who just got a trial account to play with me said she got $250.

Also, I agree that the money sold on GOM and whatnot, because it comes from other players, does not contribute to inflation whatsoever. However, I do think this system just increases the distinction between the Haves and the Have-Nots in the game. (And makes the rich richer and the poor poorer, both in the game and irl.)

New players need to have some hope of EVER becoming one of the Haves, by some principle other than (a) writing scripts, creating prim objects, or investing in land, or (b) buying their money from those who do. Otherwise many of them leave.

3. I agree with Nala Galatea’s analysis.

4. Thank you for your kind offer, Prok, but as you say, there is no way to really get the prize money, so no use doing this yet.

That is why I am having to more or less put on hold any creative ideas of my own until I have mastered and financially succeeded at what IS available for me to do here, and I have chosen to build things. I will have to go through that gauntlet – which will take considerable months, if I even succeed – before I can even think of doing anything else. I must do what is provided in the game, limited though it is, before moving forward. (Although I have been having some other ideas of fun things to do that don’t require any money – albeit they also don’t result in any financial benefit to me.)

5. "I really don't understand why you have set yourself this concept of the one-time $9.95 basic account fee, when in TSO, you paid $9.95 month after month to do what you do”

Because I have two kids and a family to think of, lol. I still play TSO, see, and I can’t justify spending more money on games.

You are right, though, that I would be happier not as a basic member. I am getting very exhausted doing this the hard way. There are things I want – and have – on this game, including a home of my own, and I even bought two items! They are adorable! A talking seagull and a talking sheep backpack! Uploading textures is costly, too, especially when so many end up blurry.

But - I've been at it for two months now, and proved that amazing things can be done on a basic account if you just work hard enough - but, I'm sick of it. Takes too much time. One day I'll lose my house because I'm so tired of working so hard trying to scrape up the "rent" money.

However, this little exercise of mine has been very illuminative, I think, in showing just how far one CAN go on a basic account. As well as just how far one can’t go, without spending not only the money for a premium account, but more - because I can tell you I am never going to be happy witout at least the 472 prims I have in Meins Residential Community - and/or buying money from other players. So something is going to have to give, and probably sooner, rather than later.

But it has been a terrific scientific experiment in testing the limits of how much one can accomplish in spite of not having rl money to spend, and in spite of having none of the technological computer and 3-D modeling and whatever all else someone above listed. I have been my own guinea pig, and in these forums, I have shared my results with the rest of you, along with my observations.

I have read and carefully thought about all the objections to my saying there needs to be a simpler way to make money on this game for the average player, and though I agree with a lot of the points made and understand the philosophy behind them, I still strongly believe there needs to be a simpler and more accessible way to make money, and the success of the game in the future depends on it.

Any of you who manage to provide such a thing for players and publicize it sufficiently will doubtless find it hugely popular. Of course, that takes money, and there we are back at the beginning of the circle again. If I ever figure out this puzzle, I’ll run rings around all of ya’s, lol.

coco

P.S. Edited to add - charging admission DID work in Sim Arts, when David Pierce charged for attendance at his plays. It was wonderful, it was cultural, it was special, and it was a relaxing evening. I loved it. But I think charging for game shows, or other games, or for club admission, and/or most things, does not work.
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
04-25-2005 15:21
From: Cocoanut Koala
P.S. Edited to add - charging admission DID work in Sim Arts, when David Pierce charged for attendance at his plays. It was wonderful, it was cultural, it was special, and it was a relaxing evening. I loved it. But I think charging for game shows, or other games, or for club admission, and/or most things, does not work.


It can work here too. The biggest thing holding it back (and please don't take this the wrong way) are attitudes similar to yours where people resent the notion of having to pay for their entertainment within SL. As you've discovered from your own experiments so far, SL can be hard work. It seems contradictory to want to make money in SL and at the same time be unwilling or resentful of paying those who provide you with things to do and content to play with. Those things are provided by other hard working residents, not by LL. I don't blame you or others for feeling the way you do. It's natural for people to assume there should be similarities between a place like TSO and SL, but the reality of it is that they're completely different... and in a good way. In TSO you obviously worked hard to do your gameshows and in return you were only rewarded with simoleans, even though what you added to the TSO world was a direct benefit to EA because you provided entertainment for their customers. In SL that kind of effot is rewarded with real money that can do things like help feed kids or send them to college or just pay for your land tier. :)
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Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
04-25-2005 15:29
From: Kismet Karuna
Depends upon where they are conjoined...

For instance, since the conjoined twins in the picture below do not seem to share the same cranium, I would say no, they are not alts if they both hold an SL account, which I really hope they do...




Interesting. So you base it off sharing a cranium. Ok, what if there are conjoined twins who share half a brain (and own the other half independently)?

Alternatively, what if they don't share brains, but instead have two heads on one body and one twin has the monopoly on the hands so they have to do all the typing for the other head? Also... Can a two-headed twin apply for two credit cards or just one, and if one twin has a monopoly on hands, would he have to be a cosigner?
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Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
04-25-2005 15:40
I'm continuing the twins discussion in Off-Topic.
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Elle Pollack
Takes internets seriously
Join date: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 796
04-25-2005 16:20
From: Reitsuki Kojima
Summed up: "I fear change."

The old system (This includes not just the event calandar, but several of the other changes made as of late) was broken. It basicly was way too condusive to a system of formulaic "winning" the game. It didn't foster true innovation; under the old system, one person would innovate and then 50,000,000 other events would be exact copies of the last "winning" innovation. Occasionaly you would get something new, like Tringo, but then a million copies of it would spring up overnight as people latched on to the next "winning" formula.

This is not condusive to the long-term health of SL. It's a form of limited stagnation, and stagnation means death for an MMORPG, unless your name is Ultima Online.

In the proccess, boats might be rocked, waves might be made, and houses of cards may collapse. Such is life. The only sure things in life are death and taxes, after all, and this pretty much is true for SL as well. In a healthy environment, change is a constant. Those who can change with the environment prosper. Those who cannot, stagger and fall, forgotten and trampled by the ever-moving engine of progress. It's cruel, but it's life. SL should be no different.


The issue with the event calander and ratings system changes isn't so much that they weren't broken and didn't need changing. It's that LL's changes didn't fix them. The event calander is no different except it's needlessly harder to get events posted. The clogged-up-ness people complain about is still there. The ratings changes weren't a complete "fix" (and I can quote Robin Linden on that), the effect could be likened to putting ice on a broken limb: helps the pain and swelling but doesn't really heal it. Not every change is good progress.

"50,000,000 other events" copying someone else's winning fomula isn't a symptom of a broken event system, it's a symptom of the human race. No change made to SL is going to change the human nature of its inhabitants en masse. People would rather follow than innovate. People's complaints about Tringo/Bingo, malls (which I sometimes like) and clubs (which I don't like but don't care about) would presist even if there were *no* event calander, I'd be willing to bet.

I've seen games go stagnent before and it's not pretty. However, I don't think SL is facing stagnation of any sort, because there *are* innovators, and plenty of them. What can be done is to give them what they need to innovate without many hastles...which perhaps not so ironicly are the same things that would benifit the average person. That includes not restricting the event calander, bringing in better search tools to more easily find people/events/objects/places/groups, better group and land tools, collaberative tools (which could include contract systems and conflict resolutions), more AVs in a sim, more bugfixing, etc.
Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
04-25-2005 16:57
From: Cienna Samiam
This is pure assumption. There is nothing whatsoever to support this assumption. Indeed, the Lindens themselves have only recently stated they do not perceive this 'issue' as one.

Considering they have the financials at hand, I'm inclined to agree with them.

I'm not sure which 'issue' you mean. I stand by my assessment that SL must grow substantially from its current size in terms of number of paying customers.

Being "on track" is not the same thing as having reached a sustainable level of business. All growing businesses must consider that if they focus on too narrow a market, they will run out of new customers.

I did not say that I think there is a current defficiency of some sort. Only that growth is necessary, and that a broader appeal is needed to achieve that.

I would also wager that Phillip & co are not striving for adequacy. Reaching a broader audience *IS* in their game plan. Bet on that.

Buster
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