Was I the Only One Who Lurked?

I've made similar observations... I lurked for a while... minor peeping after 3 months, but not getting bold til 6 months or so.

Given the way that many SL veterans produce posts which are scornful, derisive, contentious, mean-spirited, snide, hateful, condescending, divisive, contentious, hateful, mocking, sneering, bitchy, malicious, ill-tempered, disparaging, and hurtful, it might be rather nice to hear the fresh unsullied voices of new customers, even if their posts reflect less knowledge of Second Life.

A fallacy. Many topics don't require any context or "qualification" for one to have an opinion on them. For instance, I got here apparently just a little while after events support was suspended. I didn't need to lurk around, see what other people thought, or anything like that to know that I didn't think events support should have been suspended.

When I said so, I got all the reasons why some people thought that it was a good idea. If one of them had swayed me, I would have changed my mind, and thus learned something (which I would not have learned had I stayed silent). In that case, I did learn that the events support had been gamed. But none of the discussion swayed me, and I still think removing events support was a bad idea, though figuring out how to not make the system gamable would be good.

Similarly, many topics are philosophical in nature, involving tenets and guiding principles people hold in life, let alone in games. No one needs to find out what the predominate opinion is on those on the forums before expressing their own.

Having said all that, I do usually lurk on topics I just have no idea about at all, or any understanding of. If eventually I get interested enough, I'll ask a question. In fact, there is something going on in another forum right now which I will probably ask about eventually, something to do with text-on-a-prim, with the initials LSS of FSS or something. I wouldn't haul off and try to discuss that without knowing first what it is all about.

And it's true, trying to read back through the history of a topic or an issue can sometimes be more confusing than elucidating.

coco

P.S. And what Suzanne said.

Ok, I am curious about this example. You came into SL after event support had already been pulled. It would seem that by not taking the time to understand the reasoning behind their removal, or the abuse that was happening with them, that to speak out about it and just blindly say that they should not have been suspended is an uninformed opinion. There is value to finding out what has been going on before speaking about it.

I just love when would-be opponents unwittingly prove my points for me. It's like winning a free cheeseburger.

Nice catch, there, Cristiano.

I lurked for the most part. The reason wasn't necessarily to get a full history on thngs, I do agree with Coco on sometimes opinions can be formed right away on items. However, the reasons I lurked were the following:

1) To obtain reasons for my opinions. Yes, I could say, gee, it sounds like taking away event payments sucks. But really, how would I know the _reasons_ I felt it sucked, being both a new person in forums as well as in world? Without lurking?

2) To obtain general ideas of people's characters and opinions. I came in during the raging Prok time. Where he would post long diatribes, and people would respond with diatribes against his diatribes. There were a few of those that I sort of hopped in, but really, if I hadn't lurked, I wouldn't have been able to gain some of the insights into people's characters that I did during that time. And no, it's not all negative insights, either towards Prok or towards those that were talking to him.

3) To further #1, it's helpful in having your voice heard and listened to by community members (in any community rw or online), if you can substantiate opinions with actual conclusions based upon actual facts and observations. I.E. Two examples to elucidate (wooo, I pulled a big word out of my hat yaayy!)
a) Event Payments: At the time I joined SL, I obviously had not managed a club, I had not hosted any events, hell, I had hardly been to any events at that point. So, if I had come in and said "why, gosh and golly, taking away event payments sucks! oh no! the sky is falling"...how would I have supported said opinion? I knew nothing about SL economy other than people made things, sold it, and sold their money on IGE (see, at that time I didn't even know about GOM) and others came along and bought said money. I learned a long time ago (in high school speech to be exact, and had it reinforced in speech competition and later in college parliamentary debate) that if you want to convince someone of something, your opinion by itself does not carry enough weight. It doesn't, no matter who you are, no matter what your qualifications are. The most renowned expert doesn't come along and say "oh no! the hurricanes are going to cause some serious economy problems"...they go on and explain why and how the hurricanes are going to have that effect. Nor does a doctor come along and say "smoking sucks", they explain further how and why smoking sucks.
b) Prokofy: If I had posted right away, I might have thought that Prok was being attacked with nooo provocation, that people just merely hated him and were being cruel and nasty (I still think that some people crossed the cruel nasty line during that time more than once, but water under the bridge now). However, by lurking, I could see that quite a few of the responses to Prok were coming from earlier posts made by him, earlier arguments, earlier times, before I came along. I could also see why some parts of his posts drew such reactions. If I had jumped in right away, I would have been forming and cementing opinions that weren't informed.

I continue to lurk sometimes, not posting, then I post, then I don't, sometimes I don't even read forums at all. However, if I had not continued lurking, to give an example of how I feel lurking benefited me...during the IRC/Pathfinder thread, Ingrid and I got into it a little bit. If I hadn't lurked before and after that event, I probably would think Ingrid was a mean person who was going to attack anything I said. I know that's not the case now, and am glad that I lurked and gave myself the chance to know Ingrid's posts more fully. And no, this isn't an insult to Ingrid at all, it's an example that I used since I was involved in that particular exchange.

Though, I will say, Enabran, I do stick by my opinion that you are a dirty aproned wearing chef. *grins*. (btw, I don't think I ever did this IW, so I will do it here, thanks for taking the time when I've had a dumb question or two and helping me out with them )

He does seem to be the type to be naked wearing only an apron with a very naughty variation of KISS THE COOK on it.

Yeessss....lol

Here we a problem with the forums: finding "opponents" in a product discussion forum.

I dunno, I have seen some pretty interesting fights break out in New Products.

No it wasn't an uninformed opinion. People had told me to come do Game Show Channel here, so I had a hugely informed opinion of what it takes to do that. It took me about a day or two in the game to figure out why that sort of thing would be difficult for me to do here. The stipends would have helped.

Moreover, I WAS taking the time to understand it, by posting my opinions and questions on the issue, which was already being discussed on the boards.

Even if I had not had any experience with Game Show Channel, and had just wanted to do it, I still would have been able to see pretty quickly how difficult it was. I still would not have been remiss to jump right into the (then) current discussion of it.

coco

I don't even remember my first post. I can't see that far back.

You wish

I lurked for ages, then stuck a toe in the water a few dozen times before saying much. There's a huge amount of really valuable information on this forum that isn't available elsewhere. I know people who won't go to the forum as they think it, as all forums are, is rather nasty. They do without all that information, though - and miss things, or say, "I didn't know that," if I tell them something.

I just looked and I lurked for 8 months! ===
That can't be right... can it? Maybe my first post fell off somewhere.

Your statement doesn't make sense though. How could you have an INFORMED opinion if you were "moreover, I WAS taking the time to understand it, by posting my opinions and questions on the issue..." You say you were becoming informed by posting your opinion?

Also, as we know, I played TSO too, and let me tell you, things I do in SL and things I did in TSO, would have been hard to translate EITHER way. BUT, I couldn't have figured that out by people telling me to go back to TSO and host events, and being in TSO for a day or two, or by people telling me to host my quiz shows or charisma sessions (which for me, always involved a lot more than just idly chatting while my sim made faces at herself in the mirror) in SL and being here for a day or two. Either you have a whole different idea of what INFORMED means, or you're omniscient.

When one posts opinions and questions the forum people respond with feedback and answers - and unless one's opinions are set in stone one may come to alter one's viewpoint when faced with compelling argument.

Yes, but to me, informed means you've already kind of seen the other arguments and used them to form your opinion. So that's my argument, is that to have an informed opinion, there has to have already been the weighing of other opinions and sides to the issue.

For example, to me, lurking is preferable. However, I am not going to say that it's the way EVERYONE should do it. A lot of people in this thread have conflicting viewpoints to mine, and backed them up, including Coco, what I am taking issue with is the viewpoint that someone could have an INFORMED opinion within a day of being in world and forums. To me, that's silly.

I pretty much "lurked" on both the forums and SL before opening my yap. Strange country, strange customs, pays to learn them.

That's so fitting.

"When in Second Life..."

Yes, I agree with that - I think there are many processes people use to learn about new things, though. I lurked for AGES but another person posts immediately and becomes informed (I assume) by reading replies. I must say, this is a very nice thread

Even though this is technically correct, I think Enbran is referring more to temperance (the non-alchoholic kind), which can't really be gained in an afternoons perusal of forum history.

To stay on the topic, I always lurk a bit myself for the same reason. I think it's invaluable to learn about the personalities on the forum before stepping in.

To go completely *off* topic, I have to say that this is yet another reasoned, civil and totally cool post by Enbran and I am always amazed at his calm and thoughtful grasp of the essentials, and the maturity and resonableness of his approach.

He single-handedly destroys my bias against people under 25 with every word he posts.

I can't remember if I lurked or not. I usually do lurk when entering unfamiliar territory.

How did you guys find out when/where your first post was, for those that linked to them?

And just because I have The Jam stuck in my head...


You've got to move in a straight line
You've got to walk and talk in four-four time
You can't be weird in a strange town
You'll be betrayed by your accent and manners
You've got to wear the right clothes
Be careful not to pick or scratch your nose
You can't be nice in a strange town
'Cause we don't know, don't care
And we got to go, man

I mean informed enough, Katja. It doesn't take an advanced degree to be able to speak out on the topics without spending time in advance lurking the forums, either here, or anywhere.

And yes, becoming informed by posting my opinion. Having the discussion. Learning things. Specific answers to my specific questions, not just reading the answers others got to their opinions and questions.

And I would definitely disagree with anyone who thinks one should lurk a forum in order to discern the prevailing opinions and then fall into lock-step. Particularly as such opinions and sentiments on any forum change over time. As for the culture and mores involved, most forums are more alike than not. It's not like studying a magazine before submitting an article proposal to it, to make sure your idea fits in. It is free for all ideas and opinions.

Having said all that, it's really different strokes for different folks as to who lurks and who's a loudmouth. And the lurkers DEFINITELY save themselves more time, lol.

coco

P.S. I HAD already seen the opinions on it. I didn't start my own brand-new thread without reading anything else. It doesn't take months to read enough of the context to have an idea what the issue is to the point where you can put in your own opinion.

In other words, if you have been playing the game a little bit, and there is something you run into which doesn't seem to work right - like the removal of the stipends for events - then there is no reason NOT to come to the forums to discuss it.

I don't think anyone lurks to be better able to conform to prevailing opinions on the forum. As you say, it's a matter of personality differences, but for lurkers such as I the analogy might be reading a guidebook about the planet ZZ instead of going there unprepared and learning the hard way that wearing a hat is considered a deadly insult, or complimenting a cook on a delicious dish is a miserable faux pas.