A Serious Question for a Change.

Label much?

You just crystallized my point. I stopped judging people by what they wear a LONG time ago.

There were more options presented in this poll than just "mini-me" on your shirt. Your inabilty to answer without deriding others who may think differently than you speaks volumes.

You weren't defining anything in my mind - other than yourself. You were agreeing with an intolerant judgement.

As for the "who said anything about time spent in VR" point, I did, thanks. It's a valid comparision. Many people have and do label people who participate in VR environments as "not having a first life losers". That's why I am pointing out the irony of people who participate in a VR activity which draws scornful rhetoric from certain folks judging others because they might wear a picture of their avatar on their shirt. I imagine it's some leftover adolescent fear of not being "cool" lingering, which compels folks to act as such. C'est la Vie.

Hey look, sorry you got picked on in junior high or whatever, but get over it or do something about it. I remember Jenny Jones having guests on the show that wanted to confront their childhood bullys. Closure helps.

Okay, judgement is one thing. If I went out, saw someone with an avie on their shirt and then decided to not have a drink with them or enter into a mutally beneficial business arangement solely because of what they were wearing, yeah, that'd be lame.

But to think for a moment that people *don't* look at someone's appearance and form an opinion is just ridiculous.

You know, I may not belittle said person with avie shirt, but somewhere in the back of my mind, I will form an opinion about that person. And hell, I have every right to. Just as they can form an opinion and judge me based on my lack of SL "couture." Or because I don't go to events, or have a blog, or countless other things.



Ryen was commenting on ONE of those options, and I was replying in regards to THAT one. And when I felt compelled to comment on a different option, I replied to a different poster. Relevance here. Why would I bother telling Ryen that I agree with him, and add a lot of extra garbage there that he hadn't commented on himself?

Ahh... My inability to answer without ridicule, awesome. So have you formed a judgement about me now? I hope so, because you will be 'crystalizing' my point here that no one escapes judgement, given or taken.



I agree with his statement. No arguments there. It's a judgement, sure. I'm human, and realistic. Saying you're completely judgement free of anyone is hard to believe.

In my experience, the people who claim to never judge others are some of the worst judgemental people of all. They harbor ill feelings towards others and slowly turn into very angry people, all under the guise of this happy-go-lucky i sure do love everyone facade. And most of them have some awful repressed memories that they carry in the form of a chip on their shoulder. (see jenny jones ^)



Ryen said nothing about anyone with an avie shirt being a first life loser. Or not having a life. He was simply commenting on such a person's grasp of RL/SL and that a reality check might be in order.

You ever roleplay? It's like that. Some people loose grasp of reality and their RP persona. It crosses over and their identities get a little screwy. I think Ryen was just making a comment about certain people who may not separate fact from pixels in this case. And that it's a little strange to see people so wrapped up in something so intangible. We don't all take this so seriously, and sometimes it's hard to comprehend how others do.

As for your subtle hint towards hypocrasy with people logging into VR worlds and judging other people for that very same thing... Nice try. I could log in 10x as much as John Avatar, and still not take this as seriously (or strangely) as he might.

John Avatar may be unusually addicted, and after only an hour online, logs off and finds himself trying to edit move his bottle of jack daniels from table to hand. Sorry. Time spent online does not disqualify anyone from forming opinions about peers. Whether a person has less experience on or more, it just doesn't matter. Opinions are made. People judge for good or not. It happens.

i think yer all ugly. and i'm beautiful.
its the shoes

I will do my best to ignore your thinly veiled insults and assumptions for the most part. The assumption part will be a little difficult to dance around because it seems to be at the core of how you perceive, judge and interact with others.

I never claimed to not judge others, that is impossible and is not what I am debating. I am simply stating that I think it's ridiculous to form a patronizing opinion about someone because of what they are wearing. It has nothing to do with whether I was picked on in junior high, I wasn't any more than the average kid. I had the "in" gear - I considered myself fortunate, not cool by the way. Don't think for one minute that I wanted to come under that segment of "tough guy" kid's (some of whom carry this mentality into adulthood) radar. Listening to them way back then made me angry. I suppose I could've just cheered them on or joined in, I don't operate that way however.

There is a difference between judging someone and being judgemental. I think it is also important to not rush to judgement unless a person presents an immediate and sustained negative demeanor.

Judging someone as having perceived RL issues because they may wear an avie shirt is, at the very least, silly in my book. Sure I judge people. On how they treat others and myself. Not what they wear. This is where the element of time comes in. Failure to allow for some time in order to get beyond what someone is wearing and the like, is prejudging, not judging. You then also subject yourself to the judgement of others when you make public your judgements, especially with something as ridiculous as determining from what shirt someone is wearing that they need to do a "reality check". "Judge not lest your be judged" never rang truer for me.

If you want to ridicule, condescend, or assume about my RL some more, go for it. Whatever makes you feel better. You won't change my mind. I won't make RL assumptions about you in turn, because I tend to work off of what I know to be real such as the tone of your posts and your penchant to escalate with insults and assumptions. Perhaps it is you that needs a "reality check" since you seem to think you can magically divine the details of my past.

Hopefully, if you do respond, you can come up with something better that that Pulitzer Prize worthy Jenny Jones reference. Is she even on TV anymore? I wouldn't know. I have never watched it, you apparently have; so perhaps you can tell me?

Sensitive much? Naw. Give free passes to people who make uninformed decisions about the nature of a person's life over the image on their t-shirt? Naw.

Shadow, sorry for contributing to the derailment, this thread is about whether or not we would be interested in various types/combinations of SL logo clothing. I must have missed the option that said "No, and anyone who would wear their avie on their shirt needs to do a reality check".

Personally, I would be interested in a SL logo T, not one with my avie. That's not my style, but I will be darned if I would judge someone else for wishing to do so. I guess in a sense, since you came up with the idea, you must need to do a reality check too...

On behalf of FICKLE (Feted Inner Core - Kaiser Linden Endorsed), it is my honor to present you with the Best Post of Thread Award. Your prizes include this golden "Fickle Pickle" on a stick trophy, a mind control orb, a VW Beetle, and a Green Slime Follower.

Honorable Mention goes to:

The Jenny Jones comment was not some clever crack at you. And I have no idea if she's still on TV or not, I referenced that from remembering the promotional ads they used to run about upcoming shows. It wasn't meant to be smart, but the part about closure was meant seriously.

Maybe I assumed more about your past than I should, but the way your first reply started, it was made out to sound like you were likely the target of such judgement in your youth. Not to mention that it seems like you have some vested interest in this topic beyond just wanting to point out what you feel was an innapropriate comment.

Whatever the case may be...

Okay. So your problem is with judgement that doesn't agree with your way of how judging others should be done. Fair enough. But it's no universal standard. And just because it differs with your way of thinking doesn't make you right and anyone else wrong.

How people present themselves can say a great deal about them. People dress a certain way because they want to say something about themselves. In many ways, it's a statement. And as with any statement, it is subject to criticism.

And while you may choose not to opinionate about people based on how they present themselves, many others do, and I'm no exception.

I have no interest in ridiculing you. Nothing about these forums, this thread included, 'makes me happy.' This place is a great spot for, in most cases, meaningless yet fun banter. And yes, the entire debate here is completely meaningless to me, because there's no point to it. I'm not going to convince you of something, and you're not going to convince me.

You elected to bring me into this discussion when you quoted me. I had no intention other than the previous, "I agree" post, to continue or even start a debate on this. I was simply expressing agreement with a post I thought was funny and spoke some truth.

'Course, I don't back down when someone gets in my face either. That's how I 'operate.' And while it may not mesh with the kind of person you are in RL (no assumptions here, other than we're very different people), that's who I am. You have every right to come to conclusions based on that and my 'tone' in these posts.

Just remember, you took the initial stab here. While it was somewhat subtle, I read into it perfectly. And suggesting that, based on my agreement with Ryen, I am acting like someone from Junior High, is not something I won't pick up on.

You could have easily just replied stating your disagreement with Ryen's post, and mine, but you put in the extra conclusions/thoughts there and started swinging.

Oh yeah, lastly, don't bother with the martyr bit. I'm not about to play into your, 'go ahead insult me omen, so everyone will see what a nasty person you are and will <3 love <3 me instead'. Not gonna happen.

So you still discrimanate, Cool. You have already insulted me, what 's the issue? When you die old and alone, then you preach to me bitch.

Martyr? LM MA, at least you could research me a bit, I rarely become invovled in these type festivities. LM MA!!!! Now just who is upset? Is you vacuum cleaner broken?

Really? I don't think so, the stab was from Ryen, and you agreed with him and then piped in like a problematic barnacle. Woe unto anyone who might not pass your scrutinization, woe be unto those who don't form judgements initially because of someone's shirt.

Shadow asked a question to which Ryen sneered at, which you apparently support. I hope you're proud. Deriding people in the hypothetical must be very rewarding.

We should surely never wear a shirt with our avatar on it, because if we do, we obviously are in need of professional help Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

It's not our fault you are unable to differentiate. Thanks for the attention though...

I'd wear an SL tee with a hand on it =] Does that make me a label wearing media whore??? If so...I don't care. I like LL, I enjoy SL, where's the clothing? I do prefer heavier cotton. I will take this opportunity to say; I'd (prefer) one that says Linden Labs. The name "Second Life" is cool but has a hint of childishness or sillyness to it. I like to think of SL as more professional then the name/logo portrays it. Linden Labs is so much cooler.

Omen, Nolan's right.

Ryen was being a wanker. Go back and read his quote. You can use semantics to argue "but he didn't actually say.....he didn't say outright...."


"Hell no. And if you are interested in clothing like this, there is something wrong with you."

The comment wasn't productive, and it was demeaning in a blanket sort-of-way. If he wasn't interested in the idea of tees, or SL coffeemugs or whatever, that's fine. Explain why, describe why it has no interest to you. That's the type of opinion Shadow was looking for. Why throw out a put-down to most of the people discussing the idea?

When you piped back in, saying "I agree"with Ryen's quote) you were being a wanker. You weren't holding your judgements quietly in reserve, as you said that adults are wont to do. Based on the quality of your replies, I'd say that you're generally better than that; and I'd tentatively predict that probably you don't throw ass statements out like that often.

I think you're missing the step where you jumped in with your initial retort. See, until that marvelous reply went up, I had no intention of 'piping in' any further. I said what I needed to say, which was my agreement with Ryen. The only reason this conversation even began is because you decided to reply and bait me into it.

Hey, I could care less what people's standards are for passing judgement upon others. So the sarcastic woe for those who don't 'meet my standards' is laughable. Because I never claimed to hold the definitive 'way to be' or to ever care enough to want to convince anyone else. Good try though. Next time you try to put words in my mouth, ask me to open wide first.

Professional help. That's an idea introduced solely by you, interestingly enough. Ryen never said people that wore avatar shirts needed to seek a psychiatrist.

Problematic barnacle...great one. What's next, are you going to throw food at me?

All in all, I think it's rather ironic in the end, that you yourself wouldn't want to wear a tee with your avie on it (not your style). After all this, I'd figure you'd jump ahead in line to get one just to make a point. But as you said, even if you won't wear one, you'll be damned if you're going to judge someone else for doing so!

This discussion has been done to death. Reply if you want, I'll read it. But I doubt I'll be responding again.

So, you get to have your say, in the form of an agreement to a pompous remark, yet if I deign to respond to said remark, I am subjected to paragraphs full of assumptive hyperbole about my past and insults. Sorry pal, you make such remarks in the public eye, you might be "retorted" to.

I "baited" you. FAH! Who needs the reality check? No one forced you to reply to me. With your self represented "sagacity" I thought you would have realized that. I guess my powers of persuasion are indeed powerful and unheralded! If you don't like being responded to when you go off the deep end, perhaps you should not post publicly. Who is being "sensitive" now? I see you and Ryen as the baiters. You two did, after all, decide to use this thread as a venue for your predjudicial, trollish, non-scientific assumptions.

That's right. I don't want one with my avie on it. Is that ok with you? Should any member of one group not be allowed to defend a member of another group when faced with personal hang-ups which lead to ridiculous prejudgements and derision? Apparently our judicial system doesn't think so.

It's called tolerance. If you don't want to be tolerant, and wish to form broad spectrum life judgements about people based on their t-shirt, have at it. Just don't be suprised when you're taken to task on it.

Where does it end ? I mean, more power to you if you can neatly compartmentalize an SL t-shirt with an avie on it - BUT, what about say, a Mario Bros. T-shirt? Would you also judge someone for that? GTA? FF? Sonic? Quake? This is where this type of thinking leads in my experience. Compartmentalization is a crutch for those who can't get over their fears of how others may judge them for their pasttimes and who refuse to accept that computers, the people who operate them, and the internet are in fact, part of reality. Refusing to acknowledge this is where the real detachment from reality begins.

I didn't put words in your mouth, You said that if someone wore a t-shirt with their avie on it, they are need of a reality check and are blurring the lines between reality and a game. Therefore, you have appointed yourself de facto psychologist. I extrapolated from that when I said *professional help*. You also went as far as to blather on unsolicited about how some folks take SL too seriously. What that has to do with this poll, or with someone wearing a fecking t-shirt with some PIXELS on it, I just don't know.

It's ironic that you took a simple poll and responded to it with a judgement about how people take pixels too seriously while taking the pixels on their fictitious shirt so seriously. So seriously that it leads you to prejudge them. It was an unsolicted remark. A judicious, almost trollish remark that you errantly expected to be given a free pass on.

I understand. (not)

Here's a shovel. Keep digging.