Religous intolerance?
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Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
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03-26-2005 10:19
From: Talen Morgan Because now the point is moot..If I posted it now it would get removed because I made previous remarks on it....if instead of Jesus doing YMCA I would have posted Buddha doing it in the original instance we wouldn't be having this conversation....and still the Nazi symbol of hate can be found throughout this forum... Not at all. You'd be creating a precedent, to which you and others could refer to in later cases. Post it to challenge Jeska and the Customer Support team. Help them create a standard of interpreting the CS, and help us understand what the boundaries are. Precedent-setting is crucially important, and testing the limits is a time-and-tradition-honored way of making democratically-inclined communities work better. |
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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03-26-2005 10:25
From: Seth Kanahoe Not at all. You'd be creating a precedent, to which you and others could refer to in later cases. Post it to challenge Jeska and the Customer Support team. Help them create a standard of interpreting the CS, and help us understand what the boundaries are.
Precedent-setting is crucially important, and testing the limits is a time-and-tradition-honored way of making democratically-inclined communities work better. They have already created the precedent....Making fun of a christian religious figure is intolerance. Although the link I had in the thread to Crucifun which is hangman but with christ instead of a stick figure should have been edited as well as it showed the Lord in a humorus light being crucified. But now since the point has been brought up they would have no choice but to edit any reliigous figure I show doing YMCA from Christ ....to Ala or they would be saying one is ok and the other is not which at this point they couldn't do .
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Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
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03-26-2005 10:30
From: Talen Morgan They have already created the precedent....Making fun of a christian religious figure is intolerance. Although the link I had in the thread to Crucifun which is hangman but with christ instead of a stick figure should have been edited as well as it showed the Lord in a humorus light being crucified.
But now since the point has been brought up they would have no choice but to edit any reliigous figure I show doing YMCA from Christ ....to Ala or they would be saying one is ok and the other is not which at this point they couldn't do . Yes, but then you have nailed down the precedent, and made it a concretely universal standard, and you can hold them to it in the future. As they can hold you to it. And at that point, one of two things can happen. Either we can all play by the rules you and they have established together, or someone can challenge the rules and try to change them. *shrugs. Probably you. That's how it's supposed to work. Seems to me that complaining without taking action is a bit defeatist. And no, I'm not trying to stir anything up, just telling you what I might consider doing if I felt as strongly as you seem to. |
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Talen Morgan
Amused
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03-26-2005 10:35
From: Seth Kanahoe Yes, but then you have nailed down the precedent, and made it a concretely universal standard, and you can hold them to it in the future. As they can hold you to it.
And at that point, one of two things can happen. Either we can all play by the rules you and they have established together, or someone can challenge the rules and try to change them. *shrugs. Probably you.
That's how it's supposed to work.
Seems to me that complaining without taking action is a bit defeatist. And no, I'm not trying to stir anything up, just telling you what I might consider doing if I felt as strongly as you seem to. I understand what you are saying but my point was already made in that thread.. Jesus doing the YMCA and the link I posted to Crucifun are basically the same thing ...showing christ's crucifiction in a humourus light....one was edited as intolerant and the other wasn't. Go look at the thread and you tell me the difference between the two.
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Akuma Withnail
Money costs too much
Join date: 29 Aug 2004
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03-26-2005 10:37
From: Dirk Kennedy For the record, I never made a complaint to the Lindens or anyone else concerning anyone's post in reply to my Thought for the day.
I made a decision before I posted that I would not attempt to defend what I wrote. People can and will write what they will about what I write, or about God and/or Jesus, or about me personally, but I have made a decision to love you all anyway.
Jesus loved me when I was and am still unlovable. How can I do any less?
Luke 6:28
"But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you
Acts 8:32
"He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
Love and blessings
Dirk Dirk, this is a forum, not a hit and run pulpit. Your first 'Thought for the day' post engendered an extremely intense and surprisingly civil debate yet beyond a few platitudes you did not follow up on your original post, you sat back and allowed people like Paolo and Billy to pour their hearts out defending your religion instead. Now, knowing the controversy the first one stirred, you start another thread in exactly the same way and explicitly state that you have no intention of defending your point of view. I find this very disrespectful. You chose to ignore all of the many lucid and well thought out points that were made in response to your original post and to me this says that the opinions and feelings of the people on this forum mean nothing at all to you. If, as I believe you said in the first thread, you feel you have some sort of duty to spread the 'good news', I have news for you. IT'S NOT NEWS ANYMORE, this message is over two thousand years old and WE'VE ALL GOTTEN THE MEMO BY NOW. If you have some need to spread the Christian doctrine to those who have not heard of it then off to the jungles of Borneo with you, if they're not already overrun with missionaries that is. If your intent is simply to share your share your religious sentiments with fellow sl Christians then please post a disclaimer along with your propaganda stating explicitly that you are not inviting debate on this topic. If you think that you are somehow enriching or changing the lives of the ungodly on these forums then you are deluded, if you had read the posts of the atheists in the first thread you would know that their worldviews are the result of lifetimes of rational thought and analysis and no trite Bible tale is going to suddenly bring Jesus into their lives. I believe that theological discussions can be a very worthwhile pursuit for both atheists and the religious alike. I don't think it's likely to change anyone's fundamental beliefs but it causes both sides to re-examine and refine their positions and, with any luck, to think about the other person's point of view. If you believe that Christianity is something people should be thinking about and if you have any respect for the people on these forums, then stop hiding behind your parables and actually debate it with people. |
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Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
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03-26-2005 10:38
From: Talen Morgan I understand what you are saying but my point was already made in that thread.. Jesus doing the YMCA and the link I posted to Crucifun are basically the same thing ...showing christ's crucifiction in a humourus light....one was edited as intolerant and the other wasn't.
Go look at the thread and you tell me the difference between the two. I understand. Probably just a difference in personal approach to these kinds of issues. No problem.  |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
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03-26-2005 10:43
*wild applause for Akuma* Thank you. That needed to be said.
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Akuma Withnail
Money costs too much
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03-26-2005 10:46
Thanks Chip |
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
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03-26-2005 10:54
I appreciate your post Akuma. It seems like the Off-Topic Forum is being flooded with religious propaganda and feel-good spiritual orgies lately. Not that there's anything wrong with that.  ~Ulrika~
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Akuma Withnail
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03-26-2005 11:02
I'm all in favour of orgies.  |
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Paolo Portocarrero
Puritanical Hedonist
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03-26-2005 11:52
From: Akuma Withnail Dirk, this is a forum, not a hit and run pulpit.
<snip>
Bravo! Bravo! Akuma, that was probably the best post I've read on these here forums...EVER. Excellent job. If you'll recall, I made a similar point to Dirk shortly after he posted the first Thought for the Day thread. The ding-dong-ditch style of evanglism was widely extant back in the 70's and 80's, but times have drastically changed since then. Coming at this from a Christian perspective myself, I find the above practice highly distasteful and maybe even a bit inciteful. Like you, I enjoyed the open, free-flowing and mostly civil discourse that the first Thought for the Day thread evoked. I think that there is plenty of room on these forums for philosophical and/or religious dialog. However, Dirk's approach -- while probably not against the ToS or CS -- is counter-productive. |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
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03-26-2005 12:03
Even though the first "Thought for the day" thread got a little heated I thought it was an excellent discussion and I'm not sure I adequately thanked the participants, especially Paolo and Billy. Our culture makes it very easy for believers to express their views but it is remarkably hard for a non-believer to express theirs to such an extent to an audience that isn't comprised of only other atheists. I know a lot of what I have to say is made up of things many people don't like to hear and I greatly appreciate the opportunity to offer an opposing viewpoint in such a (mostly) civil dialogue.
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Akuma Withnail
Money costs too much
Join date: 29 Aug 2004
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03-26-2005 12:04
From: Paolo Portocarrero Bravo! Bravo! Akuma, that was probably the best post I've read on these here forums...EVER. Excellent job.
*Blushes* Aw, gee thanks Paolo... So many compliments, I feel all warm and fuzzy now. I found that the way you expressed yourself in the first 'thought for the day' thread to be exemplary. You seemed to be reaching out for greater understanding and challenging others to do the same. |
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Nikki Seraph
Registered User
Join date: 6 Jan 2005
Posts: 238
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03-26-2005 12:08
From: Akuma Withnail Dirk, this is a forum, not a hit and run pulpit.
Your first 'Thought for the day' post engendered an extremely intense and surprisingly civil debate yet beyond a few platitudes you did not follow up on your original post, you sat back and allowed people like Paolo and Billy to pour their hearts out defending your religion instead. Now, knowing the controversy the first one stirred, you start another thread in exactly the same way and explicitly state that you have no intention of defending your point of view. I find this very disrespectful. You chose to ignore all of the many lucid and well though out points that were made in response to your original post and to me this says that the opinions and feelings of the people on this forum mean nothing at all to you.
If, as I believe you said in the first thread, you feel you have some sort of duty to spread the 'good news', I have news for you. IT'S NOT NEWS ANYMORE, this message is over two thousand years old and WE'VE ALL GOTTEN THE MEMO BY NOW. If you have some need to spread the Christian doctrine to those who have not heard of it then off to the jungles of Borneo with you, if they're not already overrun with missionaries that is.
If your intent is simply to share your share your religious sentiments with fellow sl Christians then please post a disclaimer along with your propaganda stating explicitly that you are not inviting debate on this topic. If you think that you are somehow enriching or changing the lives of the ungodly on these forums then you are deluded, if you had read the posts of the aetheists in the first thread you would know that their worldviews are the result of lifetimes of rational thought and analysis and no trite Bible tale is going to suddenly bring Jesus into their lives.
I believe that theological discussions can be a very worthwhile pursuit for both aetheists and the religious alike. I don't think it's likely to change anyone's fundamental beliefs but it causes both sides to re-examine and refine their positions and, with any luck, to think about the other person's point of view. If you believe that Christianity is something people should be thinking about and if you have any respect for the people on these forums, then stop hiding behind your parables and actually debate it with people. Dirk posted a "thought of the day" thread, and he then chose not to respond to those who posted in his original thread. I can completely understand why, though, when essentially all he got was mockery (though, not aimed at him personally, to be sure...) and the equivalent of a sigh and the rolling of eyes. It was evident from the beginning of the post (to me, at least) that it was Christian and Biblical in nature, although, in fairness the words "Luke 23:50-53" did not necessarily make it evident to ALL from the FIRST LINE that it was Christian in nature, as the only reason I knew was that is what is common for citing passages of the Bible. Even at that, though, surely it was obvious within the first paragraph. Those who didn't want to be "preached" to had only to close the thread and read others that were more interesting to them. I don't think having no desire to DEBATE your beliefs is hiding, nor do I think it is disrespectful. Dirk chose to share his thoughts. They were his thoughts, and while he did not say they could NOT be debated by other members of the forum, the fact that he did not want to debate, personally, I do not think was disrespectful towards anyone at all. I think it would have been far more disrespectful to start off with a disclaimer saying "This is what I believe and think, and none of you may debate - even amongst yourselves - about it!" Of course, I suppose that's just me. He simply made a PERSONAL choice not to debate about his beliefs or religion in general. To be quite honest, though, Akuma, I appreciate where you are coming from, too. When a debate - a civil one - does spring up from a post, it IS nice when you can continue it with the originator of the post. As long as all parties involved can and do remain civil. I have no doubt that all of us here are quite capable of doing that, and do feel that if it could be continued in a civil manner, it's worth discussing. For both sides.
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Paolo Portocarrero
Puritanical Hedonist
Join date: 28 Apr 2004
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03-26-2005 12:18
Valid points, Nikki. I think we can extend a benefit of doubt for the first thread. But, the second? The second thread establishes an emerging pattern of street-evangelist-with-sandwich-board pulpiteering. If Dirk really wants to "reach" people, he'll cultivate relationships with them first before donning the bull-horn.
There's an old saying that seems appropriate about now: "People don't care what you know until they know that you care." That pretty much sums up my objection to Dirk's approach.
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Akuma Withnail
Money costs too much
Join date: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 347
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03-26-2005 12:20
What Paolo said.
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Akuma Withnail
Money costs too much
Join date: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 347
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03-26-2005 12:28
I'd really like to hear from Dirk on this.
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Nikki Seraph
Registered User
Join date: 6 Jan 2005
Posts: 238
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03-26-2005 12:33
From: Paolo Portocarrero Valid points, Nikki. I think we can extend a benefit of doubt for the first thread. But, the second? The second thread establishes an emerging pattern of street-evangelist-with-sandwich-board pulpiteering. If Dirk really wants to "reach" people, he'll cultivate relationships with them first before donning the bull-horn.
There's an old saying that seems appropriate about now: "People don't care what you know until they know that you care." That pretty much sums up my objection to Dirk's approach. I see what you are saying, too. I agree that it is far easier to reach a person who believes that you genuinely care about them as a person. I also feel that while it is admirable to want to share beliefs, you should never go forward with a desire - or more accurately - an expectation to change a person. There IS actually at least one breed of missionaries I know who are actually trained to remember the importance of cultivating a relationship with someone they wish to share their message with - just as an aside. And yes, honestly, what Joe Schmoe says at random out on the street means far less to me than what a friend says.
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Pathfinder Linden
Administrator
Join date: 15 Mar 2005
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03-26-2005 13:48
From: Ulrika Zugzwang *Sigh* The only thing worse than a censor is a Christian.
~Ulrika~ Not cool, Ulrika. Statements like that are a perfect example of religious intolerance, something that is explicity not allowed here. Thank you in advance for not repeating this kind of behavior. |
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
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03-26-2005 14:00
From: Pathfinder Linden Not cool, Ulrika. Statements like that are a perfect example of religious intolerance, something that is explicity not allowed here.
Thank you in advance for not repeating this kind of behavior. hmmm so that gets a "not cool" and Christ doing YMCA gets edited...And still there are threads with Swastika's in them that get neither "not cool" or edited.....I guess we can see where LL draws the line at intolerance or is it that millions of dead jews don't count over one dead messiah and those that follow his teachings?
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Pathfinder Linden
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03-26-2005 14:09
From: Talen Morgan hmmm so that gets a "not cool" and Christ doing YMCA gets edited...And still there are threads with Swastika's in them that get neither "not cool" or edited.....I guess we can see where LL draws the line at intolerance or is it that millions of dead jews don't count over one dead messiah and those that follow his teachings? Talen, Please report those posts and they will be looked at. You report a post by clicking on the button at the bottom of each message here. Looks like this:  That sends the URL of that post to all the moderators for review. |
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daz Groshomme
Artist *nuff said*
Join date: 28 Feb 2005
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happy Easter
03-26-2005 14:15
*danger: humor below, do not read if you have no sence of humor*
of course you Christians know where "Easter" comes from right? It was a pagan fertility holiday for the pagan goddess Ester, so they (the Christians) persecuted the pagans, stole the holiday, name and all, and presented it as if it was theirs.
The Easter bunny represents fucking!!! yea for fertility rituals!!!!
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Sukkubus Phaeton, RL, is the official super-model for the artist SLy and RLy known as daz!
daz is missing the SL action because he needs a G5 badly
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Dirk Kennedy
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Join date: 7 Feb 2005
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03-26-2005 14:24
I'm more then willing to talk about what I believe. I said I would not debate the thoughts for the day, as it is somewhat silly to debate a story based on events that I'm not sure happened exactly that way. I'm just dramatizing a biblical story. If you review my comments in the first thought for the day, I INVITED people to open different threads (for clarity's sake) about anything they wanted to debate or talk about. As of now, that offer has not been taken. I can't be respondsible if no one wants to talk about it.... Paolo, please re-read the original thread. I am not trying to duck out or do hit and miss evangelism. I'm more then willing to engage on these topics, but I'm not going to do so in the middle of threads that have nothing to do with the original topic.... that's too confusing and time consuming to keep up with that, and I'm too afraid of missing a post in the middle of it and having people then say I don't have an answer or I'm ignoring them, or performing hit and miss evangelism, or any myriad of responses that would reflect badly on the Savior. I am a veteran of forums, both Christian and secular, and know the dangers and pitfalls that go with them, so I'm just trying to avoid them here.... Love and Blessings |
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Dirk Kennedy
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03-26-2005 14:30
By the way, don't worry about offending me, so say what you will (within the rules of the forums of course).
It's hard to offend a person who routinely gets shot at, spit on, punched, kicked, cleans up blood, tissues, and all kinds of unmentionalbe stuff, and hasn't devoloped a chemical addiction (beside coffee) like many others in my field (paramedic).
Blessings
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Talen Morgan
Amused
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03-26-2005 14:39
From: Pathfinder Linden Talen, Please report those posts and they will be looked at. You report a post by clicking on the button at the bottom of each message here. Looks like this: That sends the URL of that post to all the moderators for review. Clearly thats the only criteria to intolerance...if and when someone reports it. From: someone
Not cool, Ulrika. Statements like that are a perfect example of religious intolerance, something that is explicity not allowed here.
If that is a perfect example and you came across it why didn't you edit it? The biggest problem in the forums isn't the intolerance because believe it or not with differing views and arguements going on here everyone pretty much genuinely likes one another...the problem is the inconsistant stance LL takes on what, when, and why they edit.
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