PG vs Mature in regards to art

Just a small bitch session for me here. I find that LL's standards for what is considered "PG" content is a bit too strict, and here's why...

I make a wide variety of things but mainly I make sculptures. Many times this means a sculpture with nipples. In my time I've received quite a few IM's from Lindens saying they're removing such and such piece because of bits, and I quickly got into the habit of providing "PG Versions" (with nipples removed) of my sculptures.

Sometimes it just gripes me though. IMO, if said sculpture is a woman carressing her nipples and spreading eagle, then yes it'd be questionable (errr, well no question, it'd be rated mature!) However, as I recall, since the first time I opened an art or history book, as early as grade school, there were sculptures and pieces of art that were nude. More than nipples... there were even penises! There is a bold line between art and porn I think. Tonight as I was removing nipples from the female centaur I just built, it just started griping my nerves again.

With the language that is allowed on these forums and the content which is allowed in mature sims inworld (as IF there are people who restrict themselves solely to PG sims, pah-leeease!), the fact I have to removed 4 round peach colored prims from the chest of a female sculpture is rediculous. Everyone who plays SL IS suppose to be 18 or older, no?

Why do I care? Well, because a centaur with no nipples looks stupid. It's that simple.

Okay, my bitch session is done. Thanks

Excellent topic.

I think if something is made for art, it should not be censored. If something is explicit, perhaps it could be in a closed area with a warning, but art is art.

I had the good fortune to have some PG land next to a Boris Vallejo/Frank Frazetta exhibit. While I enjoyed the stylized boobs and violence, I didn't think it was appropriate for open display (the building had no walls) in a PG store.

If one of those pics was in a PG house, I don't think it would violate the PG rules.

It is hard to make any distictions without sounding like a prude. This is an 18+ game and we should be allowed to act like adults.

That said, no penetration in PG art, okay?

Your statues sound like they are classy musuem type art, which should be allowed in PG. AFAIK, only John Ashcroft objects to that!

Nothing sexual at all.. certainly not penetration. I'll attach an example here of something that would be deleted from a PG sim by a Linden.... let's see if this thread dissappears because of it too...

Alan,

Boris Vallejo tends to be borderline, but anyone buy his calendar at a bookstore without an Id.

As for "no penetration", that's probably a good guideline, but how would you deal with Geiger? Some of his bio-mechanical art tends to be overtly... well, yeah.

Stormy,

If that centauress is framed as part of an artistic exhibit, or part of an artistic build, I see no reason that shouldn't be okay.

If it's part of say, a PG game, or the land it's on is not labeled as art, then, yeah, maybe it's not in place. If it's on your "home", then perhaps it belongs indoors or in a restricted area.

As a famous judge said:

"I cant define porn, but I know it when I see it!"

Of course this resulted in truckloads of pornography being delived to the judge, who dutifly looked at it all and made the decisions ...

"Yes, thats definitely porn"

"thats art."

"definitely porn'

"might be porn. Not sure. Show me another one and I'll make the final judgement"


Or so the legend goes ....
-AP

Ooo, shiny!!!!!!

You know Stormy the very fact that the word PG is even used for an adult themed world befuddles me. I mean seriously, Parental Guidance...Hmmm lets see Im a Parent of a 9 year old so that means I give them guidance as to what I feel they can or cannot see but being I am 37 and who is suppose to give me guidance again??? My Bible Thumping 55 year old step Father C'mon give me a break here.

I mean seriously the Day I turned 17 and my parents signed for me to enter the military I broke the ties to Parental Guidance. Yes for those that want to know I graduated Highschool at age 16.

But the point is its Ludcris that there is even such a standard of PG and Mature. I think in all essence the standards that are used in RL as a general rule should be applied.

I mean walk into a Mall and tell me what you see if there is a Victorias Secret Store...I could go on but anyway. As usual my point will be lost amid the throming voices of the masses to institute Thumping as a Pastime.

Anyway I digress

Shadow

i can't really explain why but it probably makes a difference that's it's flesh colored instead of marble. it's like it's supposed to be a real naked "woman" instead of a statue of one. still kinda lame to have a problem with a cartoony statue but that's my theory why.

well not nipples. not at the mall where i live anyway.

It'd be removed in marble too.

It's odd and I presume (as a foreigner) that it reflects the current cultural sensibilities of the United States. The whole world knows that someone exposed a nipple on the tv and there was apparently uproar.

I note that a giant sculpture of a gun, or guns in general, would not cause a problem in a PG area. Utterly bizarre.

what effect do you think would ripple through the world if ll just abolished the ratings? there'd be very little to notice at this point. they'd get loads of whining from people who'd paid top dollar to own mature land. but they've survived us all lamenting over far more important things than that.

now there's a point. if philip believes that removing sim ratings will adversly affect his virtual economy experiment, it won't happen hands down. that's all the justification one needs to keep them in place. the good of the community runs a close second; but that's cory's project and he doesn't own the company. after proposals pass those two filters, the business unit can take over and make an informed decision.

i don't see where it will hurt the economy; in fact, it might stimulate it a bit. no damage will be perpetrated on the community either. i think. the feted and broker wars will continue without missing a beat. from a business perspective, land prices will level between current pg and mature rates and, very likely, toward the upper end. ll and the brokers will make a bit more money in the long run.

topic topic topic: i host show & tells in pg sims and occassionally have artwork shown that is questionable to the ratings police. they generally ask; i generally approve with a notification that i can't prevent other participants from neg rating them if they are offended. as the other posts have said, we're all supposed to be adults and have our independent personal rating tools.

What I don't understand is why, if there is a minimum age of 18 to play SL, that nipples on a statue are such a big deal. They aren't even depicted in a sexually explicit manner! If you placed a statue of David on your property would his penis have to be covered with a fig leaf? If you took a child to the Smithsonian Art Museum you'd see all sorts of anatomical parts. *sighs*

Stormy, if your sculptures are stylized in marble, particularly the females, is there any way to prove that they're not simply wearing a tight shirt?

Stormy, may I have permission to use your name in a blog posting about this Second Life version of Nipplegate? I've already posted the story, but I've left your name out to protect the innocent.

I dunno, I think maybe bras are required too.



I don't mind at all Zero.



To add further to the controversy, I had the following sculpture returned from a PG area once. Now, this one I would consider borderline. It's a mother breastfeeding an infant, in marble. To toss a monkey wrench in, these days women are allowed to breast feed in public.... here anyway.

Just to add, I would not go as far as to say the ratings should be removed. I think the line drawn between PG and mature is misplaced though. It seems very odd to me to have to remove nipples from sculptures in a game where I can go into a nightclub and see screens with women being fisted.

My point is, yes it's nice having areas without porn. I despise porn personally. The areas that contain this type of content aren't exactly surrounded by virtual barbwire. Any minor who gets into the game (and obviously plenty do) is perfectly able to see anything and everything in SL if they go looking for it. So who is it protecting to not allow nipples on a model in a PG area?

I guess it's a matter of offending people. There may be very few, but I'm sure there are a handful of people who find nipples offensive to look at. As a matter of fact, I'd uploaded some screenshots of some of my sculptures to the web to show a few coworkers who always ask what I do when I'm off. One of my coworkers is a guy who is also a minister. He refused to have any part in viewing them with us because he knew there were naked chests. *shrug*

hmmmm.... my parents approved of nipples.. i was breast fed after all....

My 2 cents...If a mature subject has unquestionable artistic value, it's STILL a mature subject. When the Lindens make the PG/Mature judgement, the decision is based on the estimated number of people who would be offended to find the item in a PG sim. This estimate is normally developed through their interaction with users and answering complaints.

If the Lindens have a tendancy to be over protective of PG sims, those who enjoy displaying/viewing mature content DO have mature sims they can go with little or no restriction. On the other hand if the Lindens become too relaxed in PG content enforcement, people who are offended will have no place to go at all and may leave Second Life.

This one way street tends to cause the Lindens to err on the conservative side, and I personally think it's the right thing to do.

Here is a good point I was raised in Europe in Mastrict Holland for the latter part of my stay there and in Holland you had Veronica 1 and 2 and Neatherlands 1 and 2 TV stations.

It was nothing as a young coming of age male to sit there on any given night and see a naked woman having sex on TV showing her Nipples and sweet spot to the world on regular TV mind you and it wasnt porn either.

So in a sense I guess I am europeanized in the openmindedness of the human body.

In a religious fashion americans and the world are inundated with the Christian belief that we are borne Naked. I feel we were borne Whole and Christianity instilled the pollution of sin in our minds to make us believe we are Naked...but thats just me.

Bringing the Illusions of stupidity to light...

Shadow

You know based on that maybe LL needs to Re Assign sim guidelines to ....

Conservative...((edited had a smart ass remark but have refrained))

and

The World....where normalicy exists

Shadow

LOL! Well i'm with you.
Aimee loves nipples.
I have 3 of my own.

>>>>Blink<<< now thats a Chest mans dream 1 for mouth and 1 for each hand..

Well that could be fun, but may be uncomfortable as my third nipple is located on the sole of my superfluous foot.

Aimee is ugly but she's GOT A DATE!