Second Life Forums Archive - If you thought we were uptight about Janet...

Misnomer Jones

3 is the magic number

Join date: 27 Jan 2003

Posts: 1,800

02-13-2004 13:13

From: someone

A much better example would be to imagine a vigilante mob marching down the street lynching anyone who DARES to wear an Ozzy Osbourne t-shirt.

This is what you guys arent getting. Its highly offensive in their culture!

Im not saying mobs whacking people is right, but they apparently don't have the tools to deal with this. Its in their culture that thats how they deal with it. Would I want to live there? Heck no. Do I think its right? Heck no. But its THEIR CULTURE. We can tell them its wrong but then we are the devil to them so like they'd listen to us anyway.

Palestinian suicide bombers think what they are doing will get them into heaven. Israelis are now thinking of hanging bags of pig fat in buses and malls to prevent it. Does any of this make any sense to Americans? NO. Is what they are doing over there right? Heck no.

People of the world arent the same the world over. Women are mutilated, sold into slavery.. oh I mean as wives... Children work at tender ages. Things that would horrify us. Is it right? For us? No, for them it may mean survival.

We are in no position to rule the world morally or financially.

_____________________

Jack Digeridoo

machinimaniac

Join date: 29 Jul 2003

Posts: 1,170

02-13-2004 13:19

The people in India who want to celebrate valentines day WANT it to be a part of their culture. Nobody is forcing them.

Beating someone up who wants to celebrate valentines day is wrong, no matter where you were born.

Jellin Pico

Grumpy Oldbie

Join date: 3 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,037

02-13-2004 13:21

From: someone

Originally posted by Misnomer Jones
This is what you guys arent getting. Its highly offensive in their culture!

So? There are lots of things that are offensive to a lot of people. The flip answer of "It's their culture" doens't take away the basic injustice of it.

It's just an excuse. And a poor one at that. Been used way to often to wipe away too much horror.

Zana Feaver

Arkie

Join date: 17 Jul 2003

Posts: 396

02-13-2004 13:51

I just want to point one thing out: There is no law banning valentine's celebration in India and no law banning public displays of affection (read the article again). Secondly, it's not 'one culture' in India any more than it is 'one culture' in the U.S. India is, in many ways, even more diverse than the U.S. -- especially when it comes to religion. In India there are huge active populations of Muslims, Hindus, Shihks, Zorastrians, Christians, and Buddhists. Additionally, among Hindus, there are even more divisions among the castes. What's going on here is one group who has decided that Valentines day is wrong threatening force members of their own group (not everyone, just the Hindus -- read the article again) to not celebrate the "holiday."

Finally, India has a secular government that tries to avoid conflicts within religious groups but doesn't do a bang up job of it. And, lastly, Valentines Day is not limited to America! According to the History Channel, it has a much longer history.

For your persual:
The History of Valentine's Day

And a little
Indian Culture Information

Zana

_____________________

Zana's Dressmakers' Shops: Medieval, Fantasy, Gorean, and period clothing for men & women. Great little party dresses and lingerie. Home of the Ganja Fairy.

Nolan Nash

Frischer Frosch

Join date: 15 May 2003

Posts: 7,141

02-13-2004 15:45

From: someone

Originally posted by Selador Cellardoor
Jellin,

It's interesting how the same situation can be viewed so differently. I have some sympathy with the aims of those Hindus, if not the methods they use. American culture is very strong, and it is insidiously invading other countries.

Britain is now totally in the thrall of American culture. We listen to American music, have adapted our language to embrace American word-forms and expressions, we watch entertainment from America every day on television. Things are so bad that in some of our TV ads the narrators use fake American accents! This kind of thing gives rise to extreme reactions - certainly I have seen an increase in anti-American sentiment over here in recent years, which I think is due to the slow realisation that our culture has been swamped.

In the same way that Britain is (or was) a strong culture and therefore can absorb influences from the Caribbean, the Indian sub-continent and the far East, so America is quite capable of absorbing cultural influences from elsewhere, and to benefit from them in the same way that Britain has benefited.

But it doesn't benefit any country to be swamped and to have its own natural culture diminished. This, I think, is the danger those Hindus foresee.

Incidentally, Eggy, we never used to celebrate Hallowe'en either - over the last 20 - 30 years it has become more popular, fuelled by the retail market, and now every year we are assailed by all the paraphanalia that goes with it. I'm waiting for Thanksgiving to arrive next!

Halloween or All Hallows Eve, originated from the Pagan Holiday Samhain (pronounced sow-wen). Its name means summers end. This spirit connotation originated as the ancient Celtic druids paid tribute with gifts and food (and sometimes it was rumored sacrifices) to the spirit world to insure that next year’s crop would be bountiful. It was a time for communicating with the dead and receiving wisdom from past ancestors to insure prosperity.

Trick or Treat, or going from house to house to ask for gifts, was said to have originated in England, where peasant children, dressed in rags like prisoners, would beg for coins or treats as a token of remembrance of a man, Guy Fawkes, who was drawn and quartered after attempting to blow up the British government offices. However, Halloween did not become an American “Hallmark Holiday’ until the 20th century.

The Jack O’ Lantern was adapted from the old British practice of carving out turnips or other vegetables to make lanterns. Pumpkin carving remains one of the main attractions at any Halloween gathering.

Emperor Claudius II of Rome, also known as Claudius the Cruel was having a difficult time recruiting men as soldiers. He believed that the men did not want to leave their sweethearts and cancelled all engagements and marriages throughout Rome. St. Valentine, a priest of Rome at the time, secretly married couples. He was eventually caught, arrested and condemned. He was beaten to death and beheaded on February 14th, around the year 270.

Valentine Day greetings became popular during the middles ages. During that time period, lovers sang or spoke their sentiments. Paper and written Valentines became popular at the end of the 15th Century. The oldest Valentine that exists today was made during this era and is on display in the British Museum.

ummm, who was/is influencing who? *SIGH*

_____________________

“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit

Devlin Gallant

Thought Police

Join date: 18 Jun 2003

Posts: 5,948

02-13-2004 21:32

Not bothering to quote a previous post, but how exactly do bags of pig fat in buses and malls prevent suicide bombings?

_____________________

I LIKE children, I've just never been able to finish a whole one.

Misnomer Jones

3 is the magic number

Join date: 27 Jan 2003

Posts: 1,800

02-13-2004 22:38

Pigs are seen as unclean. If blasted body parts come in contact with the pig fat then the being that became bits will be denied access to heaven .

Some ultra-Orthodox Jews have said if the pig fat isnt used on buses they will arm themselves with toy water pistols filled with liquid lard to be used
against terrorists.

_____________________

Selador Cellardoor

Registered User

Join date: 16 Nov 2003

Posts: 3,082

02-14-2004 00:36

Nolan,

<< Trick or Treat, or going from house to house to ask for gifts, was said to have originated in England, where peasant children, dressed in rags like prisoners, would beg for coins or treats as a token of remembrance of a man, Guy Fawkes, who was drawn and quartered after attempting to blow up the British government offices. However, Halloween did not become an American “Hallmark Holiday’ until the 20th century.>>

Guy Fawkes Night takes place a little later, on Nov. 5th. This used to be (not so much now) a time when during the evenings preceding the 5th, groups of children would call at houses with an effigy in a pram, asking, "Penny for the Guy?" The fate of the Guy was to be burned on a bonfire on 5th.

Irrespective of its origins, the fact is that it is still a local festival, and, like most of our festivals, it still has at its heart commercial exploitation.

It is sad to reflect that every one of our festivals now involves buying something, but I suppose it is inevitable..

Garoad Kuroda

Prophet of Muppetry

Join date: 5 Sep 2003

Posts: 2,989

02-14-2004 05:08

I had a big reply here but apparently it wasn't meant to be (power failure), so I'll just say: this isn't just about culture, it's about personal freedoms as well.

No idea how this got onto the subject of "pig fat" (although it's interesting), that's more of a self-defense and religious discussion.

_____________________

BTW

WTF is C3PO supposed to be USEFUL for anyway, besides whining? Stupid piece of scrap metal would be more useful recycled as a toaster. But even that would suck, because who would want to listen to a whining wussy toaster? Is he gold plated? If that's the case he should just be melted down into gold ingots. Help the economy some, and stop being so damn useless you stupid bucket of bolts! R2 is 1,000 times more useful than your tin man ass, and he's shaped like a salt and pepper shaker FFS!

Selador Cellardoor

Registered User

Join date: 16 Nov 2003

Posts: 3,082

02-14-2004 05:45

Incidentally, I said I was very tired last night. I just didn't realise how befuddled I was.

I wanted to bid on an expensive mobile phone on ebay. I did so, and went to bed happy. This morning I discovered that somehow I'd managed to bid on two separate phones! I am currently the high bidder (£220) on each of them with six hours to go!

I've never been so anxious to be outbid!

David Cartier

Registered User

Join date: 8 Jun 2003

Posts: 1,018

02-16-2004 18:07

Um, our corporations that sell that junk in supermarkets here are very nearly all British, Dutch and Belgian, for the most part, if you want to get technical.

From: someone

Originally posted by Eggy Lippmann
This has nothing to do with Janet. It's about YOUR corporations destroying THEIR culture, for the sake of profit.
Indians certainly have nothing against people loving each other, but they are entirely justified in not wanting silly american customs contaminating their country.
You're doing it to us too. A few years ago "halloween" stuff started to appear at the local shopping center.
It sickens me to the hilt, especially because around here, that time of the year is traditionally a solemn one, when we remember our dead, and humbly acknowledge that we too will eventually fade away.
Definitely the wrong time of the year to be prancing about in silly costumes and eating candy.
It hasnt been catching on that much, but you never know. With enough time and marketing any culture can eventually be destroyed.

Garoad Kuroda

Prophet of Muppetry

Join date: 5 Sep 2003

Posts: 2,989

02-16-2004 20:43

'course.... with all the mergers going on nowadays, who knows what company owns what. Yay multinationals (barf)

_____________________

BTW

WTF is C3PO supposed to be USEFUL for anyway, besides whining? Stupid piece of scrap metal would be more useful recycled as a toaster. But even that would suck, because who would want to listen to a whining wussy toaster? Is he gold plated? If that's the case he should just be melted down into gold ingots. Help the economy some, and stop being so damn useless you stupid bucket of bolts! R2 is 1,000 times more useful than your tin man ass, and he's shaped like a salt and pepper shaker FFS!

If you thought we were uptight about Janet...
Misnomer Jones 3 is the magic number Join date: 27 Jan 2003 Posts: 1,800	02-13-2004 13:13 From: someone A much better example would be to imagine a vigilante mob marching down the street lynching anyone who DARES to wear an Ozzy Osbourne t-shirt. This is what you guys arent getting. Its highly offensive in their culture! Im not saying mobs whacking people is right, but they apparently don't have the tools to deal with this. Its in their culture that thats how they deal with it. Would I want to live there? Heck no. Do I think its right? Heck no. But its THEIR CULTURE. We can tell them its wrong but then we are the devil to them so like they'd listen to us anyway. Palestinian suicide bombers think what they are doing will get them into heaven. Israelis are now thinking of hanging bags of pig fat in buses and malls to prevent it. Does any of this make any sense to Americans? NO. Is what they are doing over there right? Heck no. People of the world arent the same the world over. Women are mutilated, sold into slavery.. oh I mean as wives... Children work at tender ages. Things that would horrify us. Is it right? For us? No, for them it may mean survival. We are in no position to rule the world morally or financially. _____________________
Jack Digeridoo machinimaniac Join date: 29 Jul 2003 Posts: 1,170	02-13-2004 13:19 The people in India who want to celebrate valentines day WANT it to be a part of their culture. Nobody is forcing them. Beating someone up who wants to celebrate valentines day is wrong, no matter where you were born.
Jellin Pico Grumpy Oldbie Join date: 3 Aug 2003 Posts: 1,037	02-13-2004 13:21 From: someone Originally posted by Misnomer Jones This is what you guys arent getting. Its highly offensive in their culture! So? There are lots of things that are offensive to a lot of people. The flip answer of "It's their culture" doens't take away the basic injustice of it. It's just an excuse. And a poor one at that. Been used way to often to wipe away too much horror.
Zana Feaver Arkie Join date: 17 Jul 2003 Posts: 396	02-13-2004 13:51 I just want to point one thing out: There is no law banning valentine's celebration in India and no law banning public displays of affection (read the article again). Secondly, it's not 'one culture' in India any more than it is 'one culture' in the U.S. India is, in many ways, even more diverse than the U.S. -- especially when it comes to religion. In India there are huge active populations of Muslims, Hindus, Shihks, Zorastrians, Christians, and Buddhists. Additionally, among Hindus, there are even more divisions among the castes. What's going on here is one group who has decided that Valentines day is wrong threatening force members of their own group (not everyone, just the Hindus -- read the article again) to not celebrate the "holiday." Finally, India has a secular government that tries to avoid conflicts within religious groups but doesn't do a bang up job of it. And, lastly, Valentines Day is not limited to America! According to the History Channel, it has a much longer history. For your persual: The History of Valentine's Day And a little Indian Culture Information Zana _____________________ Zana's Dressmakers' Shops: Medieval, Fantasy, Gorean, and period clothing for men & women. Great little party dresses and lingerie. Home of the Ganja Fairy.
Nolan Nash Frischer Frosch Join date: 15 May 2003 Posts: 7,141	02-13-2004 15:45 From: someone Originally posted by Selador Cellardoor Jellin, It's interesting how the same situation can be viewed so differently. I have some sympathy with the aims of those Hindus, if not the methods they use. American culture is very strong, and it is insidiously invading other countries. Britain is now totally in the thrall of American culture. We listen to American music, have adapted our language to embrace American word-forms and expressions, we watch entertainment from America every day on television. Things are so bad that in some of our TV ads the narrators use fake American accents! This kind of thing gives rise to extreme reactions - certainly I have seen an increase in anti-American sentiment over here in recent years, which I think is due to the slow realisation that our culture has been swamped. In the same way that Britain is (or was) a strong culture and therefore can absorb influences from the Caribbean, the Indian sub-continent and the far East, so America is quite capable of absorbing cultural influences from elsewhere, and to benefit from them in the same way that Britain has benefited. But it doesn't benefit any country to be swamped and to have its own natural culture diminished. This, I think, is the danger those Hindus foresee. Incidentally, Eggy, we never used to celebrate Hallowe'en either - over the last 20 - 30 years it has become more popular, fuelled by the retail market, and now every year we are assailed by all the paraphanalia that goes with it. I'm waiting for Thanksgiving to arrive next! Halloween or All Hallows Eve, originated from the Pagan Holiday Samhain (pronounced sow-wen). Its name means summers end. This spirit connotation originated as the ancient Celtic druids paid tribute with gifts and food (and sometimes it was rumored sacrifices) to the spirit world to insure that next year’s crop would be bountiful. It was a time for communicating with the dead and receiving wisdom from past ancestors to insure prosperity. Trick or Treat, or going from house to house to ask for gifts, was said to have originated in England, where peasant children, dressed in rags like prisoners, would beg for coins or treats as a token of remembrance of a man, Guy Fawkes, who was drawn and quartered after attempting to blow up the British government offices. However, Halloween did not become an American “Hallmark Holiday’ until the 20th century. The Jack O’ Lantern was adapted from the old British practice of carving out turnips or other vegetables to make lanterns. Pumpkin carving remains one of the main attractions at any Halloween gathering. Emperor Claudius II of Rome, also known as Claudius the Cruel was having a difficult time recruiting men as soldiers. He believed that the men did not want to leave their sweethearts and cancelled all engagements and marriages throughout Rome. St. Valentine, a priest of Rome at the time, secretly married couples. He was eventually caught, arrested and condemned. He was beaten to death and beheaded on February 14th, around the year 270. Valentine Day greetings became popular during the middles ages. During that time period, lovers sang or spoke their sentiments. Paper and written Valentines became popular at the end of the 15th Century. The oldest Valentine that exists today was made during this era and is on display in the British Museum. ummm, who was/is influencing who? SIGH _____________________ “Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
Devlin Gallant Thought Police Join date: 18 Jun 2003 Posts: 5,948	02-13-2004 21:32 Not bothering to quote a previous post, but how exactly do bags of pig fat in buses and malls prevent suicide bombings? _____________________ I LIKE children, I've just never been able to finish a whole one.
Misnomer Jones 3 is the magic number Join date: 27 Jan 2003 Posts: 1,800	02-13-2004 22:38 Pigs are seen as unclean. If blasted body parts come in contact with the pig fat then the being that became bits will be denied access to heaven . Some ultra-Orthodox Jews have said if the pig fat isnt used on buses they will arm themselves with toy water pistols filled with liquid lard to be used against terrorists. _____________________
Selador Cellardoor Registered User Join date: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 3,082	02-14-2004 00:36 Nolan, << Trick or Treat, or going from house to house to ask for gifts, was said to have originated in England, where peasant children, dressed in rags like prisoners, would beg for coins or treats as a token of remembrance of a man, Guy Fawkes, who was drawn and quartered after attempting to blow up the British government offices. However, Halloween did not become an American “Hallmark Holiday’ until the 20th century.>> Guy Fawkes Night takes place a little later, on Nov. 5th. This used to be (not so much now) a time when during the evenings preceding the 5th, groups of children would call at houses with an effigy in a pram, asking, "Penny for the Guy?" The fate of the Guy was to be burned on a bonfire on 5th. Irrespective of its origins, the fact is that it is still a local festival, and, like most of our festivals, it still has at its heart commercial exploitation. It is sad to reflect that every one of our festivals now involves buying something, but I suppose it is inevitable..
Garoad Kuroda Prophet of Muppetry Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 2,989	02-14-2004 05:08 I had a big reply here but apparently it wasn't meant to be (power failure), so I'll just say: this isn't just about culture, it's about personal freedoms as well. No idea how this got onto the subject of "pig fat" (although it's interesting), that's more of a self-defense and religious discussion. _____________________ BTW WTF is C3PO supposed to be USEFUL for anyway, besides whining? Stupid piece of scrap metal would be more useful recycled as a toaster. But even that would suck, because who would want to listen to a whining wussy toaster? Is he gold plated? If that's the case he should just be melted down into gold ingots. Help the economy some, and stop being so damn useless you stupid bucket of bolts! R2 is 1,000 times more useful than your tin man ass, and he's shaped like a salt and pepper shaker FFS!
Selador Cellardoor Registered User Join date: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 3,082	02-14-2004 05:45 Incidentally, I said I was very tired last night. I just didn't realise how befuddled I was. I wanted to bid on an expensive mobile phone on ebay. I did so, and went to bed happy. This morning I discovered that somehow I'd managed to bid on two separate phones! I am currently the high bidder (£220) on each of them with six hours to go! I've never been so anxious to be outbid!
David Cartier Registered User Join date: 8 Jun 2003 Posts: 1,018	02-16-2004 18:07 Um, our corporations that sell that junk in supermarkets here are very nearly all British, Dutch and Belgian, for the most part, if you want to get technical. From: someone Originally posted by Eggy Lippmann This has nothing to do with Janet. It's about YOUR corporations destroying THEIR culture, for the sake of profit. Indians certainly have nothing against people loving each other, but they are entirely justified in not wanting silly american customs contaminating their country. You're doing it to us too. A few years ago "halloween" stuff started to appear at the local shopping center. It sickens me to the hilt, especially because around here, that time of the year is traditionally a solemn one, when we remember our dead, and humbly acknowledge that we too will eventually fade away. Definitely the wrong time of the year to be prancing about in silly costumes and eating candy. It hasnt been catching on that much, but you never know. With enough time and marketing any culture can eventually be destroyed.
Garoad Kuroda Prophet of Muppetry Join date: 5 Sep 2003 Posts: 2,989	02-16-2004 20:43 'course.... with all the mergers going on nowadays, who knows what company owns what. Yay multinationals (barf) _____________________ BTW WTF is C3PO supposed to be USEFUL for anyway, besides whining? Stupid piece of scrap metal would be more useful recycled as a toaster. But even that would suck, because who would want to listen to a whining wussy toaster? Is he gold plated? If that's the case he should just be melted down into gold ingots. Help the economy some, and stop being so damn useless you stupid bucket of bolts! R2 is 1,000 times more useful than your tin man ass, and he's shaped like a salt and pepper shaker FFS!

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